“We didn't ask to be born, therefore we don't owe our parents anything”

Ethics
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Example:

This is a common rallying cry of the “estrangement” movement, in which increasing numbers of adult children are going “no contact” with their parents for reasons varying from the serious (for example, sexual abuse) to the trivial (for example, parents voted for Donald Trump). This is often done with no warning or explanation, resulting in bewilderment and distress for the parents.

But is it true that because you didn’t ask to be born, you owe no obligations to your parents? Here are some arguments for and against.

FOR

The statement “we didn’t ask to be born” is factually correct. The parents made that decision, and therefore only the parents owe obligations to the children, not the other way round.

It is similar to the situation in law where if you are given a gift, there is no legal obligation to give anything in return.

The general rule in the animal kingdom is that when young animals reach maturity, any responsibilities from the adults to the children and vice versa, cease.

AGAINST

There are several examples in the animal kingdom of adult offspring continuing to support or care for their parents. These include wolves, orcas, African wild dogs, elephants, chimpanzees and several species of birds.

“Honour your father and mother” is an important principle in multiple religions including Christianity, Judaism and Islam, and in Native American culture. In all of the above examples, this obligation persists into adulthood. The fact that this principle is so widespread suggests that it is a very ancient and fundamental principle of human society.

What do people think? And for a bonus point, do parents continue to owe a lifelong obligation to their adult children?

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I would say that (assuming that parents are loving parents), parents have cared for their children and, therefore, it can be expected that children would care them in turn. Also, children couldn’t literally exist without parents. If the children take their existence as something positive, then they should be aware that they wouldn’t exist without their parents and this would be a big reason to be grateful.

This is a rather interesting question, isn’t it? I would say that that parents have an obligation to take care as much as they can to their children even after the latter become adults. Otherwise, it would mean that they stop to love their offspring.

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Is this true? Do you have some sort of evidence?

It’s not a question of obligation, it’s one of loyalty. All other things being equal, loyal people take care of those they’re close to. I think that’s something built into our human nature and it’s an important human value.

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Yeah, this is tough. If the relationship is toxic, sometimes kids have to estrange themselves for their own mental health.

But - I think we must always look upon life as a gift, not a burden put upon us. Take your wondrous human capacities and run with them, and hopefully find your gang.

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This article, others like it, and a lot of anecdotal evidence, suggest that it probably is:

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Astoundingly enough, I’m going to take issue with this statement. From the perspective of the philosophy of Arthur Schopenhauer, each individual person is an embodiment of Will, and the Will is what drives the entire process of evolution, reproduction and the struggle for survival. Certainly on the level of my individual consciousness, I may have no awareness of that, so in that sense I’m not personally responsible for it. But then, I’m also not personally responsible for my metabolic functions and processes, and yet I embody them, and they drive me.

I think the idea that we could have chosen not to be born is illusory and meaningless. We are part of the ongoing processes of life and the perpetuation of the species, which goes on, as the song says, both within you and without you. The isolated Cartesian ego who is anxious about where it came from and how it got into the predicament it calls ‘life’ is the problem.

As regards ‘Estrangement in America’ - well, look at America. It has elected a convicted felon and seccesionist to the highest office, who won the election by stoking division and hatred of ‘the Other’.

I am not American but I do have direct family in America, many of whom are indeed divided and estranged from other familty members, specifically over this issue. I notice the very first source of division and estrangement given in the Time article is the current occupant of the White House. I think it’s a good bet, were that not so, the article wouldn’t have needed to be written.

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There is no logical connection between “asking to be born” and “owing to our parents”. You care for your parents because you love them, not because you asked to be born.

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One certainly doesn’t have obligations towards their parents by default, so in that sense I must agree with the statement in the OP.

But going ‘no contact’ seems like a severe measure, only fitting of severe circumstances.

Also, thinking about one’s relationship with their parents in terms of ‘obligations’ already seems to betray some unhealthy family dynamics.

(or perhaps some misguided youthful rebelliousness, which would be pretty typical for your average reddit thread)

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I think it’s said that way because so many estranged parents used “you owe me” as their bargaining chip when, no, we don’t. You don’t owe anything to someone who doesn’t give a damn about you.

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if we didn’t ask to be born then we shouldn’t have also cried for attention or food back when we were toddlers. i agree with schopenhauer.

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That sounds tragic and sad case, but normally it doesn’t happen. Normally parents care for their children for their wellbeing and successful happy life, and children love and care for their parents, and that is a norm in human society.

But unfortunately abnormal cases can happen, we hear about them.

But this thread was specifically on the premise for someone claims that he hadn’t ask to be born. After quick inspection on the point made, it seems clear that, there is no logical connection between asking to be born and caring for the parents.

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The estrangement trend isn’t new. For a long time, it’s been fundamental to American culture that children must move out of their parents’ home, ideally, at the age of 18, and make their own life. Hence the sarcastic remark “You’re still living in your parents’ basement” or the term “failure to launch”.

The estrangement between American parents and children is culturally conditioned, even though for the most part, probably economically motivated.

The “I didn’t ask to be born, so I don’t owe my parents anything” could be a post hoc justification. Namely, American culture is intensely focused on material success, to the point that people will cut ties with anyone who in any way holds them back from achieving that success, and this includes family. While it seems easy enough to cut off old friends and acquaintances (for they seem to appear quite randomly in one’s life), blood ties don’t have that randomness to it, so a bit more work is needed to justify cutting those ties.

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In a society, where even late-term abortion is expected to be seen as normal, this can eat away at the otherwise inherent care between parents and their children.

If you know that your parents thought about aborting you, you’re probably not going to be too eager to care about your parents.

And many parents do tell their children the circumstances of their conception and birth.

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Honestly, I think what it signifies most of all is latent depression.

And I don’t mean that facetiously.

Someone who is deeply depressed may not view their life as a gift, but as a curse.

I think it’s a sign of the times. Many people just lack the developed social and familial networks that used to be the norm a few decades ago. Therefore they lack the sort of guidance that gets one through a deep depression.

Instead it’s all self-help, internet ‘wisdom’, paid-for psychologists or therapists, etc.

It’s nice that those things are available, but they cannot replace the sense of belonging that a healthy social life brings.

A bit of a side-track, perhaps, but I hope the relevance is clear.

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This is backwards, I’d argue in most cases.

People can become depressed because they believe their life is a curse.

Possibly because their parents flat out told them they regret having them or that having them was a mistake, or that they are a curse and a basket case.

“You’re the reason why I had to stay with that drunk of your father/mother!”
“You’re the reason why I had to stay working in a dead-end job!”

Then, of course, we shouldn’t underestimate the effects of being taught evolutionary biology in school, the practical corollary of which is “You’re just a piece of meat” and “life is a struggle for survival.”

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Maybe so, but my intention was not to justify the beliefs of someone suffering from depression, rather to explain their way of thinking.

Rational discussion rarely amounts to anything given the nature of the ailment.

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which appears to be deeply emotional rather than logical.

I have never lived in America, so I don’t know much about American culture or people how they live. Only aspects of American culture I know about perhaps, is from the movies and some youtube videos in the past.

I used to think America is a country which is difficult to define because of the vastness of its land made of many states and also different ethnic and cultural folks who descended from all over the world. There are the extreme riches, and extreme poor, good folks and bad folks, highly clever folks and incredibly stupid folks etc etc. The moment someone said America is X, there is always the opposite case can be seen.

Maybe they are highly material minded, but which country folks aren’t? Are they not more or less the same? It all depends on the individual folks who live in the societies, some are good, lucky and highly intelligent, but some the opposite?

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Namely, American culture is intensely focused on material success, to the point that people will cut ties with anyone who in any way holds them back from achieving that success, and this includes family…"

i think this is why there was an old saying that went something along the lines of “take the technology from the west and the customs from east”.

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While I agree that depression is a mental illness, I do believe that these kinds of ‘depression-influenced’ thoughts can be philosophically-relevant.

For instance, is any kind of life always a blessing? Is mere existence itself a blessing even if, say, one lives in unbereable pain without any hope of getting better?

I think that it works both ways. Thinking about too much about one’s own mortality, for instance, can lead to think that life is a curse and then depression if there is no other belief that somehow helps to avoid this kind of judgment about life.

On the other hand, depression itself entails suffering and the experience of suffering can lead eventually one to think that one’s existence is a curse.

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i think it was at disco elysium’s end where it said something along the lines of i am so glad to be a very sensitive machine, myself so the existence would still be a blessing as the alternative is feeling nothing (death)