Scrolling Past the Dead

One of the insights I find recurring a lot in antique thought, that seems relevant here and underappreciated today is that the person who knows how to do a lot of things, but not what is actually worth doing is actually particularly dangerous, and liable to be unhelpful.

As Spiderman’s Uncle Ben says, “with great power comes great responsibility,” (or if you want to seem fancier, Cicero said pretty much the same thing). At the social scale, this might translate to something like: “the more technologically advanced your society becomes, the more you need to focus on what is worth achieving for your society.” I think it’s fair to say we’ve actually done the opposite.

That obviously applies to technological development, but it applies to education as well. What is the point of teaching people how to do things (with a focus on wealth and influence) but not what might be worth achieving? Aside from the more obvious problem of the “best” schools producing a lot of people engaged in morally dubious practices, it seems far more common that people on the meritocratic grind never learn what will actually make them happy. But that’s the same problem we see with technology, a focus on developing ever more powerful means, without understanding our ends.

Yes, and this is where I make use of Adorno and Horkheimer. The entirety of their work was aimed at broadening reason beyond the quantitative and instrumental, to encompass—and therefore question—ends as well as means.

And this is why the focus, from this critical theory point of view, is on critiquing ideology, because it’s ideology that makes certain ends appear as natural facts rather than choices.

And this in turn is why it’s worth focusing on capitalism, because the paradigm case of a questionable human creation that has been put beyond question, and been put beyond conscious control, is “the economy”.

EDIT: But if we’re looking for a more positive conception of human flourishing, I concede that Adorno doesn’t often open up in that direction.

Humans are distinct among the species in their ability to cumulatively self author their social structure. A pod of dolphins from 10,000 years ago might have certain climate related genetic adaptations, but it would look much the same then as now. Human life is dramatically different from 10,000 years ago.

This thread realizes that and points to our unknowing self created subservience, somehow positing us philosophers as the only ones self aware enough to push back against the machine that has come to control us.

The role of religion then becomes paramount. Does it act as an opiate, offering us the deception of meaning to keep us subjugated by our created monster? Is this why the cries of rebellion ring forth, to see clearly our self imposed enemy and to take back charge?

But suppose it’s not, just arguendo if you must. Suppose it identifies the immutable among the human created flux, to take seriously it is the truth serum, but not the morphine? All then would not be human structure and superstructure existing for varying degrees of control, but there might be a truth, a fountain that was not made by the hands of men.

And that’s the meaning of “Ripple,” and you would not have derived that by asking Jerry, because the artist isn’t the creator of his meaning, but just illuminates something he might not fully understand, but that’s a different thread’s concern.

I don’t have much help. I don’t even have a citation, but I remember a study that either judged or at least conjectured that one reason people went along with the Nazis was that they could not imagine themselves as part of something horrific. The conclusion I believe was that, say, being horrified and distancing ourselves from a murderer—taking ourselves to be incapable of murder—is the exact thing that makes murder possible: “I couldn’t possibly be involved with something like that.”

Perhaps one “face” we are distanced from is our own, as the other. We lack imagination and empathy, making judgment and dismissal easier, as the term “evil” is meant to absolve us (the good) inherently and categorically. But this is neither civilization nor sociology.

1 Like

‘Master, master
Where’s the dreams that I’ve been after?
Master, master
You promised only lies…’

Yes, in Stiegler’s terms the loss of savoir-vivre, of knowing how to live in a way that brings true satisfaction. That’s not something that traditional education provides and, now, culture doesn’t provide it either.

Adorno is fairly unrelentingly negative, right? I like to try to combine him with Schiller, and though in tone they’re an odd couple, I think the idea of aesthetic education brings them into some kind of consonance.

This is a current debate and a can of worms. Most interpreters say yes, he is, but a view that chimes better with my own experience with Adorno is that of Peter E. Gordon in his book, A Precarious Happiness: Adorno and the Sources of Normativity, which argues against the negativist reading.

He’s relentlessly critical, and his method proceeds by determinate negation, but he’s no nihilist, and he’s deeply animated by the promise of happiness, in quite a simple sense. Utopia, though he never describes it and considers attempts to do so a kind of desecration, comes up again and again in his work as a kind of horizon.

I believe there is some real sympathy there, but I’m a Schiller-ignoramus.

Interesting point, and surely correct, but it only appears like a challenge to my view if you conflate emotional with moral responses. I think that’s what you do here:

It is posited that watching extreme content does not elicit a strong moral/emotional response for certain people.

Moral and emotional are not the same thing. I don’t deny that there remains an emotional response, a stimulation that viewers may even seek. This could be thrill, shock, or fascination, etc. But this is more like what we experience when watching a horror film, which is more or less divorced from the moral sphere. At no point does the viewer (the kind of viewer I’m talking about) experience even a trace of a moral demand. And this is exactly the problem I’m pointing to: the reduction of real suffering to entertainment in a continuum of content.

However, as you note, even this stimulation might lessen.

I know I mentioned Thomas Carlyle’s “Sign of Our Times” before. I’ve been reading his essays lately and I’d recommended reading him because he’s directly on point to much said here. “Sign of Our Times” is not terribly long, and worth a read. Thomas Carlyle's "Signs of the Times"

1 Like

I waded through all that pompous conservative windbaggery just for you. Happy now?

It’s a fascinating glimpse though. There are certainly some sharp observations that tie in with what @Baden and I have been thinking about, and I thought it was really remarkable that he was writing the following just as Karl Marx was beginning to write Capital.

What changes, too, this addition of power is introducing into the Social System; how wealth has more and more increased, and at the same time gathered itself more and more into masses, strangely altering the old relations, and increasing the distance between the rich and the poor, will be a question for Political Economists, and a much more complex and important one than any they have yet engaged with.

And there’s another almost Marxian moment when he implies an interdependency between ideas and material conditions (base/superstructure being only a crude representation of Marx):

We advert the more particularly to these intellectual propensities, as to prominent symptoms of our age, because Opinion is at all times doubly related to Action, first as cause, then as effect; and the speculative tendency of any age will therefore give us, on the whole, the best indications of its practical tendency.

More remarkably, the following is an early description of reification and alienation, in which an idea, which is a contingent product of social life, appears as natural, a solid thing in its own right (that’s the reification)—and one that “stands terrible before us” (that’s the alienation):

Considered merely as a metaphor [society as machine], all this is well enough; but here, as in so many other cases, the “foam hardens itself into a shell,” and the shadow we have wantonly evoked stands terrible before us and will not depart at our bidding.

And when I recently mentioned the penetration of capitalism into the self, it looks like an echo of Carlyle when he writes…

Not the external and physical alone is now managed by machinery, but the internal and spiritual also.

And his criticisms of scientific reductionism and mere quantitative science are also found in Adorno (although the latter’s critique is very different in some important ways).

This condition of the two great departments of knowledge — the outward, cultivated exclusively on mechanical principles; the inward, finally abandoned, because, cultivated on such principles, it is found to yield no result, — sufficiently indicates the intellectual bias of our time, its all-pervading disposition towards that line of inquiry.

The problem is the idea, still common, that…

what cannot be investigated and understood mechanically, cannot be investigated and understood at all.

I was also struck by his use of the concept of the infinite:

There is a science which treats of, and practically addresses, the primary, unmodified forces and energies of man, the mysterious springs of Love, and Fear, and Wonder, of Enthusiasm, Poetry, Religion, all which have a truly vital and infinite character

This has an affinity with the way that Levinas—who I’m reading at the moment—uses the concept: inifnity as another person you encounter, something you can never grasp entirely.

I also like the mechanical vs dynamical scheme.

He lost me when he waxed lyrical about wondrous destinies and faith in Christ stirring in the mystic deeps of man’s soul, and I have several harsh criticisms—but this is not the place for them. Generally it’s fascinating when thinkers from opposite directions make similar diagnoses.

Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply that they were. I just said it because I saw both terms used throughout the thread and thought they bore some relation to each other and both were potentially interesting to discuss.

To be clear then, you are talking about a moral or an emotional desensitization?

Leaving aside my issue with the notion of desensitization, it’s the moral aspect I’m interested in.

I agree in terms of the consistency of the diagnosis. What he said regarding the problem arising from mechinization (of actual work, but more importantly, thought processes) and its dehumanizing forces could have been written by you, @Baden, or Marx (and I’m pretending there is a difference between the three of you), but his response, where he lost you is where you diverge. It’s actually where I agree with him most (and no, I don’t mean literally faith in Christ), which is that acceptance of a higher power is the solution, which allows us to transcend the purely material. And I don’t mean pragmatic solution. I mean a requirement of sincere belief that grounds meaning, that without leaves us searching for meaning in the mundane, which is not something it contains.

Where you see Marx everywhere (to a hammer, all is a nail as they say), I see religion. You guys write about how we need to tune out of chaos, which I just hear as daily prayer and the sabbath. The sabbath is an interesting concept, given that there are 10 things one should live by and “keeping the sabbath holy” somehow makes the same list as not murdering, lying, or committing adultry. Ancient civilization recognized for literally thousands of years that we must consistently stop and sanctify creation else we lose our humanity, and now we have to rediscover it and spin in circles trying to justify it on modern secular grounds without relying upon the gods that should have been put to bed ages ago.

But I blather now.

I’ve barely even mentioned where I diverge most seriously from Carlyle. It’s not the religion, it’s the politics. His instinctive anti-democratic conservatism comes through in the essay a couple of times. Like the bit where he disparages efforts to improve the material conditions of the people:

It is no longer the moral, religious, spiritual condition of the people that is our concern, but their physical, practical, economical condition, as regulated by public laws. Thus is the Body-politic more than ever worshipped and tendered; but the Soul-politic less than ever. Love of country, in any high or generous sense, in any other than an almost animal sense, or mere habit, has little importance attached to it in such reforms, or in the opposition shown them.

I have no time for these sentiments. But since there are superficial similarities between his position and mine, I sometimes have to put the work in to show why it’s not the same thing (which is not to say he doesn’t make some great points along the way).

While I’m here…

For all earthly, and for some unearthly purposes, we have machines and mechanic furtherances; for mincing our cabbages; for casting us into magnetic sleep. We remove mountains, and make seas our smooth highways; nothing can resist us.

Are domestic labour-saving devices in the same ball-park as removing mountains? Ponder it.

That’s @Baden, not me. I’m only half on board with that. He and I have strong sympathies but my prescription for and orientation to the situation are a bit different.

As for religion, I don’t know what to say other than I think we can learn or relearn a lot from religion, but it’s not the answer. It’s not ancient civilization any more.

Well, I don’t read it as one or the other, but more as the abandonment of advocacy of the spiritual and an entire focus on the material in order to advance the mechanizaition processes. That is, we will throw all we have into protecting the workers to advance the mechaninized system because we see nothing else as important.

But, yes, I agree. If we’re going to have factories, we must have safety rails. But we also have to safety rails against allowing the machine to consume us.

I saw the essay as offering a general lament against dehumanizing through mechanization against the backdrop of the Industrial Revolution. That he’s grouped all mechanization examples into a single lump didn’t distract me from that greater point.

Jung would argue that archaic man exists within us all. All of us are products of the mythology inherent in our being. What this means is that disregard for the present significance of antiquity is part of the modern affliction, and it the cause of the dystopia. That is, one can’t deny the contents of his unconscious and expect to remain healthy.

This is just to say that jettisoning traditional values on the basis of perceived obsolesence is the misstep I’m suggesting has occurred. We’re the same old folks who walked the planet thousands of years ago, with the same hopes, dreams, myths, and spirit as we always have. The human journey away from the spiritual to the physical has occurred not because our drives and needs have changed, but it’s because we’ve allowed the fetish of productivity to crowd out entirely our spiritual needs.

I would go some way to agreeing with you here in that religious practice can certainly provide for a form of meaning that counteracts the meaninglessness of pursuing infinite economic expansion, the ultimate expression of quantitative supremacy.

However, outside of theocratic regimes, religion is just another institution and, as such, is subsumed by the prevailing ideology, functionalized by it.

So, where there is a contradiction, e.g. in the U.S. between hoarding excess wealth and Christianity, it is Christianity that gives in order to resolve that contradiction.

So, yes, there has been a misstep in a way. But it’s a bit more complicated to me. To go back to the purely theocratic is just to play musical chairs with ideologies, but to hold on to a religion that has become captured as a mere institution within another ideology is to embrace a false potency.

Having, said all that, the compromise you put forth is much closer to my notion of health than the tacit reduction of the spiritual to stimulation, that is, the disappearance, in toto, of anything resembling authentic spirituality at all.

Incidentally, I just started reading “Juno and the Paycock” by Sean O’ Casey.

On the very first page, this:

Mrs Boyle… I hear all about Mrs. Tancred’s son is in this morning’s paper.

(Mrs. Boyle crosses behind Mary, takes off hat and black shawl, and flings them on bed in alcove.)

Mary. The full details are in it this mornin ; seven wounds he had — one entherin the neck, with an exit wound beneath the left shoulder-blade ; another in the left breast penethratin’ the heart,

an’ . . .

Johnny (springing up from the fire). Oh, quit that readin’, for God’s sake. Are yous losin all your feelin’s? It’ll soon be that none of yous’ll read anythin’ that’s not about butcherin’!

1 Like

This I agree with and alluded to in my comment that I wasn’t agreeing with Carlyle’s advocacy of Christianity specifically (for obvious reasons). But I realize Carlyle wasn’t talking generically about religion, but was very much talking about Christianity, which means for me to remain aligned with him, I have to be looking at Christianity as any belief system that honors the spiritual. This attempts to move me as far as possible away from equating religious systems as institutions or political entities.

This creates an equivalency of ideology regarding the physical and spiritual. That is, one doesn’t have to resort to some external institution to advocate the concept of putting up safety rails to protect factory workers (which is a physical protection), but for some reason we can’t institute basic spiritual protections without it. That comes from an over-ambitious purge of the church from the state, that Enlightenment principle we often hold too absolute. There needs to be some acknowledgement that the state can regulate the spiritual at some level and not require it to attach only to religious institutions.

This last paragraph was an epiphany of sorts that arose as I was writing it, so I’ll have to think about it, but it sounds right in some sort of way.

It makes me think that this prurient appetite for the grisly details, in the same register as salacious gossip, is a perennial feature of families and communities going back to ancient times. From this point of view, my friend’s wish to share the video with me was actually her saving grace—a venerable gesture of invitation to shared knowledge. The problem then (or another problem) would be those who don’t share it, who literally scroll on past without reaching out to another human being.

In the scene, I feel like my sympathies are with Mary and Mrs Boyle, not with Johnny, playing the role of moral authority. :thinking:

I can go along with this. But the reason I say it’s not an answer is that you’re not addressing, and are not really interested in, the specific situation. To you, any attempt to analyze what is going on and to imply that it’s bad in some way evokes from you an answer along the lines of Carlyle’s last line:

To reform a world, to reform a nation, no wise man will undertake; and all but foolish men know, that the only solid, though a far slower reformation, is what each begins and perfects on himself.

And to do this religiously. To me, this adds an extra, more spiritual and personal layer, to the diagnosis, but shrinks back from really grasping the situation in its specificity, in just the way the system wants.

But to be fair, you now seem to be advocating for more than that:

Yikes.

To the extent your fear of my position is thinking I’m advocating theocracy, worry not. As I’ve noted, my view of religion is entirely abstracted, specifically rejecting institutions and not suggesting we pick a representative one. A society necessarily chooses an ideology, and the current one that pretends neutral isn’t. Whatever fear of indoctrination exists is just a fear a new one will be installed, not that our neutrality will end.

As to how to bring about the soul politic, the creation of spiritual protection as exists for bodily protection? Beats me really. I’m not a utopian or revolutionary. I’m a guy with goats. I do suspect it arises from proper upbringing and schooling more than any governmental effort, which usually ends up looking like limited government, private or charter schools, and religious affiliation. You know, like being Republican.

Do I think Carlyle"s view we ought do away with democracy and find the heroic leader or whatnot to fix this? My thought is not, largely because he too is not some great social designer, having no idea what actual results he will achieve, all likely far worse than we have. I just wish Marxists would accept the same of their views and attempts to fix society by destroying it.

Generally I was struck by Carlyle’s observations from over 100 years ago that still ring true but his appeal has limitations. I understand he advocated slavery and hated the Jew, which places him nicely in his time period as that certain type. Mill he was not.

But back on point, which I’ll hold to: you can’t expect our humanity to be protected unless you protect it. What holds true for the physical holds true for the spiritual. Guard rails must exist in the factories. We need some guardrails for our humanity as well.