Scrolling Past the Dead

I feel like when you do sociological analysis like this, people feel like anything goes and it’s “just a theory”. Or whatever. But it’s not. No matter what angle you come at this from, there is a problem. I tend to come at things from a philosophical / polemic / rhetorical angle; partly because it includes an affective dimension that, in its performance, signals the missing sensuality I’m complaining about; and partly because that just comes naturally to me. But what you gain in affect, you sometimes lose in vigour.

Certainly, the article I wrote that @Jamal mentioned (“Faciality and Pathology”) could be criticized for tending towards florid assertion rather than solid science. But the boring solid science on this is right there for anyone who wishes to look for it and can look past their immediate misunderstandings—one of the most egregious of which is that what is being posited is that there was a “good old days” before technology with less violence and that we’re on the conservative nanny bandwagon here. As @Jamal pointed out earlier, it’s almost the opposite of that.)

So, let’s interweave the actual science here to give more grounding to the claims. First of all, we claim a kind of desubjectivization, a degrading of subjective presence, due to increased technological mediation of communication. And that might sound a little bit vague and hard to pin down. But it has a direct neuroscientific corollary as follows:

When you look at what happens to our neural hardware when we move from face-to-face to digital interactions, there is an identifiable suppression of neural activity. And as long as you accept the connection between neural activity and a sense of self, which is hardly a matter of debate, the grounding for the claims of those like @Jamal and I becomes quite clear.

Here are a couple of studies to be getting along with.

  1. Yale: Neural “Suppression” on Zoom

Yale researchers compared brain activity during in-person versus Zoom conversations.

They found brain activity was “substantially suppressed” in the online interactions. By contrast, face-to-face encounters resulted in a rich web of neural interactions that remained dormant when replaced by their online counterparts.

This corresponds to the idea that the subjective experience in its full viscerality (and, by extension, subjectivity itself) is “thinned out” by technological mediation.

Link: Yale News: Zooming in on our brains on Zoom

  1. The Oxytocin Gap: Seltzer et al.

Another study at the University of Wisconsin-Madison) examined how stress and bonding hormones are affecting by different forms of communication mediums.

(This is highly relevant to the OP because oxytocin is considered the “empathy” hormone. So, before I introduce this evidence I want to qualify the role of oxytocin in a way that I think also helps to disambiguate the general thesis here from the “tech media causes violence” misunderstanding. So, what’s important about oxytocin is that it not only increases empathy but can actually also increase tendencies towards violence. This paradox can be dissolved by understanding that increases in empathy towards those we know or consider as kin (in a loose sense) make us more likely to be protective of them when they are threatened. What oxytocin does then is deepen our interconnectivity in a way that makes us feel more about others but not in a way that straightforwardly leads to more empathy for everyone we might encounter. The context decides.

Studies that look at empathy in an “objective” generalised way are unlikely to be able to easily account for an increased level of viscerality that aligns with an intensity in our relationship to others which, though it can and often does translate to empathy, may also result in violence. So, interaction with tech media, while hollowing out our empathy hormones and desensitising us to violence towards others may also reduce violent behaviour as a side effect of increasing apathy towards one another.)

So, on with the University of Madison-Wisconsin study:

It found that stressed children found relief (through oxytocin release) when interacting with their mothers in person or only over the phone (audio). Communicating using instant messaging (text) resulted in no oxytocin production and no significant stress reduction.

I.e., it doesn’t matter how many smilies you stick in a text, they cannot replace emotion, they simply simulate it in a way that, when this simulation becomes naturalised, is destructive.

Link: PMC Study: Why we still need to hear each other

  1. Brain-to-Brain Coupling)

A recent study in Nature on Neural Synchronization shows that when we are in face-to-face interactions, there is a higher rate of "inter-brain synchrony”, i.e. our brain waves oscillate at similar frequencies. When interacting through digital interfaces, this rhythm is significantly disrupted.

Link: Nature: Synchronization of brain activity in face-to-face vs. online

  1. Mirror Neuron System (MNS) Efficiency

Again, directly related to empathy, a study by Diclkerson et al into the Mirror Neuron System suggests that our intuitive understanding of others as measured through the activity of the MNS is significantly disrupted / suppressed by technological intermediation.

Link: PMC: Mirror Neuron System in a Digital World

In order not to go on too long, I won’t even go into studies concerning the brain’s Default Mode Network (DMN) and the importance of being able to withstand boredom (away from the distractions of tech media) for extended periods as it represents experientially crucial background brain processing.

Anyhow, to reiterate, scientific studies paint a picture that is in synchrony with the philosophical and sociological analysis presented in the OP and elsewhere. So, we can look at things rather abstractly, in terms of the action of a “faciality machine”, a technologically supercharged social communication mechanism that pushes technological mediation and in doing so steals the energy inherent to face-to-face communication, processing it through the mechanisms of the market into its own reproduction, i.e. we can posit in a philosophically abstract way an increasingly efficient monetization of human presencing, of subjectivity itself. Or we can just look at the science and combine it with what we already know about basic economics and draw the same conclusion.

Which we can sum like this:

Tech companies, in pushing technological intermediation, degrade social life in a way that can be measured right down at the neurochemical level, and they do so in order to create in us an emptiness that we then try to buy back from them through more engagement with their platforms.

This is like drinking Coke to avoid being thirsty, while only dehydrating ourselves further. The trick is to pass off the empty for the substantial in order to keep the difference. Worse, with social substance, to be deprived of it—to be deprived of ourselves at a visceral level—makes us less likely to be aware of what is happening.

If visceral presence, the root of subjectivity itself is the resource, tech media is the extractive industry and you don’t need philosophy or sociology to figure this out, the science and the economics do the basic work for you.

But for those who are really interested in the philosophy of it, the mechanisms are no great secret. The OP touches on it and contemporary philosophers like Berardi, Stiegler, Byung-Chul Han, Donna Haraway, and many more lay it out in detail.

Anyway, I hope @Jamal, you write your article because if anything is important, this is.

Personally—and I may write more on this myself—I think what we need is a “Boring Revolution”. Just to stop. To stop mediating everything through the technological. Put the tech away. Forego the video call. Forego the emoji laden texts. Wait until we meet that person in person to do our socialising.

But if we do, and we still can’t put our phones away—if our visceral connection to the other has been so degraded that we’d prefer to make money for Musk and Zuckerberg than look that person in the face, then—I have no hesitation in claiming—we are doomed.

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Thanks, it’s coming together for me.

The following part is what I’m unclear on:

I’d amend this to “a perceptible moral response”. This leaves the “none at all” interpretation open but doesn’t necessitate it. The problem I have is this:

Watching a video does not provide any immediate-action demand on the person watching the video. What’s happened, happened. There’s a disproportionallly small emotional response involved to what you would expect had the person “been there”.

There’s some kind of moral “seeding” taking place here - we might have to wait for the fertiliser and rain for it to… sprout. (Okay that’s maybe too much of a metaphor, but I don’t know how else to put it.) We might be dealing with a delayed, distributed moral response, whatever form that might take.

So how does that feed back into the morality of video-watching situation. What I’m currently wondering is whether it’s more a clash of manners than ethics: the outward face you give to your moral make-up.

This is also something I’m unconvinced of, but I don’t have much to say at that point. My hunch is that what’s fruitfully considered primary depends on situation and setting. There are not-me others and there are not-us others, and it seems to me that a shift in emphasis is almost necessary when we move from a place with few not-us others to a place with many not-us others. But it’s complicated. I’m not sure I disagree yet, but I know I don’t quite agree.

One other thing that came to mind;

It is posited that watching extreme content does not elicit a strong moral/emotional response for certain people.

I think this is potentially a false assumption. It seems to me people are drawn to extreme media precisely because it gives them a strong response of some kind - why else would they seek it out?

It is probably only after repeated engagement with this type of content that the strong response lessens due to desensitization.

I thought Jamal didn’t make any claim about empathy. In any case, there already were screens in the 1980s. The evidence I asked for was for this supposed desensitization after the 1980s. I quote:

None of the studies show that there is a “fundamental loss of subjectivity” associated with watching death videos. Not even close. So there is still no evidence of a loss of subjectivity or the capacity to be morally affected by the suffering of others between the 1980s and today, and there isn’t even any evidence that watching death videos makes you lose this capacity.

You should look at social displacement theory; the idea that social media replaces face-to-face interactions is not well supported. On the contrary, it probably allows for more social interactions.

If we accept the Nietzschian point that the weak adopt a slave morality in order to justify their submission as virtue, we’ll wind up right where we are: rebellion against that untenable concept and the death of god all over again.

If religion is to exist as a protection against the dehumanization through systemization and not as a facilitator (and this has Marxist implications), then the religion must protect the holiness (defined as “the state of being set apart for a sacred purpose”) of humanity and can’t consider it ultimately flawed. That creates a subservient model too easily manipulated for unholy purposes.

That is, I agree with you. We must avoid bad religion.

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It’s hard to say anything about this issue and the constellation it’s a part of. Some have noted that h. sapiens is violent in constitution; we’re the planet’s apex predator and also the author of the Holocene anthropogenic mass extinction.

Then again we’re also the only species that shows any kind of concern for the welfare of other species; in extreme form we have Jain monks wearing masks so as not inhale microbes, killing them in the process.

Perhaps we should look at it from religious-scientific POV. Religions invariably try to elevate humans to some kind of high position (made in God’s image, the best shot at nirvana, etc.) and science coolly saunters in and knocks us down (Copernicus, Darwin).

I had a conversation with AI on modern philosophy. She describes a shift in weltanschauung, nature is not just a resource to be exploited but is an ecology of interconnected/interdependent actors that includes us. Does this, in any way, help generate a relevant comment to the OP?

I found the following quotation in Berardi’s Futurability and thought of you:

There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart that you can’t take part! You can’t even passively take part! And you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus – and you’ve got to make it stop! And you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it – that unless you’re free the machine will be prevented from working at all!

Mario Savio, Berkeley 1964

I’d like to read more on your boring revolution, because I’m interested in the nuances that you haven’t mentioned but which must be there. I mean, I don’t think you reject digital tech entirely (even aside from practical issues).

Otherwise, thanks for all the scientific references. Very interesting. Not sure what to make of it all yet.

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I’ve been following this discussion with interest and slowly (not boring).

Interesting how ‘slow’ has this negative connotation of low intelligence or lacking capacity for keen alertness or awareness.
Not sexy?

Yes, well…please write more :slight_smile:

First off, all of this sounds wonderful.
However, we have little choice re ethics of using the internet services and adding to the coffers of the rich and powerful Big Bully Boys.

However, when push comes to shove, what we watch, eat or listen to comes down to us. The demand to satisfy our needs and wants is always there.
Why do we passively consume?
Why can’t we see that there is joy to be had in producing, creating and experiencing life simply and slowly? Breathe, get off your bum and take a walk — self-talk!

I think some do. It’s just that we don’t hear of the ‘good’ stories so often. Violence is interesting.

Some people can’t just ‘stop’. Some are addicted. Some need the human contact (like this!) that the internet provides.

The problem relates to human behaviour and habit-formation. We are becoming dependent on others to think. To come up with immediate ‘solutions’ to questions. No questions asked. Satisfaction guaranteed?

I tried AI and stopped it. Sometimes helpful, it appears to get to know you - this is appealing - but it is all a sham and destructive to self.

Don’t we need to be made more aware of how this increasing laziness (effectiveness?) is affecting our being; our intelligence, knowledge and experience acquisition?

At TPF, there is the chance to develop helpful ways of thinking and engagement. To prevent the de-humanisation, to promote care and fun.

Death and carnage, war waged everywhere - the killing of humans, animals, plants, earth - it is overwhelming.

Yes, you are right, we need to stop. Slow down. To process. To look at better ways of living.

I wondered about your ‘Boring Revolution’ and perhaps its likeness to the ‘Slow Movement’.
I turned to my friend - the laptop - searched and found:
Rise of the Emergentsia: The Revolution Will Not Be Boring - Emerge

Also, scrolled through wiki - slow democracy, education, technology, slow thought…
Slow movement (culture) - Wikipedia

I look forward to you, @Jamal and others writing more - both here and within the EKM project.
An Enzymatic Knowledge Machine - General Philosophy - The Philosophy Forum
Thank you :folded_hands: :hibiscus:

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Good question. Apologies for not addressing the OP. I don’t know how to reinstate the sources of morality. What are they again?

"Men are grown mechanical in head and in heart, as well as in hand. They have lost faith in individual endeavor, and in natural force, of any kind. Not for internal perfection, but for external combinations and arrangements, for institutions, constitutions,—for Mechanism of one sort or another, do they hope and struggle.”

"Sign of the Times, " Thomas Carlyle, 1829.

Has the machinery now crept beyond a takeover of just brawn but now deeply into the intellect so that now there’s no safe place to hide out and be human? Is that why these Victorian era laments suddenly seem so urgent?

So I’m going down the path that perhaps the cause of the discontent is in either those who personally lack conviction in the value of unmechanized human worth or in those who are certain otherwise but have to suffer within a society that maintains dystopian views.

What does Jung say about it?

That’s the gist, I think. We’re accustomed to thinking, on both ends of the political spectrum, that capitalism is already complete or even being superseded, but I think what we are seeing is the continued penetration of capitalist logic into community and the self itself. (The logic of wealth as a mere means to more wealth, which entailed mechanization in Carlyle’s day and now means something else as well, maybe a mechanization at a different level).

On the other hand, I’m not reducing everything to capitalism as the one bad cause. It’s bigger than that, and includes bureaucracy and instrumental rationality, which have been features of non-capitalist countries too.

It’s just that capitalism accelerates this ever-expanding process more than any other socio-economic system, and is the context we all live in now (with a few exceptions).

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Great quote, and yes, that pretty much sums up how I feel.

That’s right, I reject its status as an unproblematic intermediary between human and self, human and human, and human and nature. Besides that, I think there’s always some cost to its use, but that cost can be worth paying if we use it wisely.

In any case, I’m with Stiegler in viewing digital technology as part of the wider notion of “technics”, which includes language itself along with writing etc. As humans, we’re stuck in technics and I don’t think it makes sense to simply resist technological progress. But we ought to direct it rather than have it direct us.

Besides which, we ought to have a more holistic sense of what constitutes progress. If progress means trading a healthy brain chemistry for a more efficient economy, we ought to ask ourselves whether what that ultimately leads to individually and socially is “progress” worthy of the notion.

This goes back to the point @Count_Timothy_von_Icarus made in the EKM thread. Without a proper notion of “health”, we lack meaningful direction. Unfortunately, the less we have of it, the less we seem to sense its loss.

All we need now is a second.

Your wish is my command. :saluting_face:

Exactly! Today, the revolutionary act par excellence is not getting on X and shouting about the system, it’s going for a walk and leaving your phone at home.

That is the nub of it. Even more pernicious, we seem to have slipped into self-stroking negative cycles of self-deletion where the substantial difference is processed into perfecting the very mechanisms that initiate such cycles.

The environment is much healthier here than in most online spaces because at TPF we are rewarded socially for doing philosophy, that is, reflecting, rather than merely reacting,

And so, it shall be done!

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It’s the qualitative rather than the quantitative that is the major focus here. Both the OP and my post specifically give examples of ostensible in-person social interactions being negatively inter-mediated by technology.

Where?

And yes, I know you are talking about the qualitative difference, but I am not sure if you are simply saying that there is a difference or that the interactions through tech are wrong in a sense, not just less intense than in person. If those interactions aren’t wrong and don’t replace face-to-face, then there is little to worry about. Or maybe they don’t reduce the amount of face-to-face but make face-to-face interactions less intense, but that’s not what the studies were about.

The first line of the OP is about an in-person interaction negatively intermediated by technology.

To say they are wrong seems a bit binary. I would say they are degraded.

The studies show measurable differences in brain wave synchrony, neural web activity, and hormonal production that suggest qualitative differences between tech-mediated and non-tech-mediated interactions.

I suppose it then comes down to a question of how you link these to subjective states and the extent to which you value those subjective states.

There is more to be said on that obviously. But the studies are certainly relevant to the general issue raised in the OP.

I see.

Are they interactions we should avoid in and of themselves or because of how they affect face-to-face interactions?

Yes, what the studies don’t show is that having tech-mediated interactions lowers the quality of non-tech-mediated interactions.

If a) we still have as many face-to-face interactions, b) with the same quality, and c) tech-mediated interactions aren’t problematic in and of themselves, then I don’t think there is anything to worry about. The studies don’t show anything about (a), (b), or (c). Showing that tech-mediated interactions have less quality than face-to-face ones is one thing, but the next step is, in my opinion, rejecting (a), (b), or (c).

I agree, essentially. At least that there is more work to be done to connect the dots there. And I may come back to this.

Yes, but damn you for identifying mental states with physical ones. It’s this way of thinking that leads the puppeteers of destruction (a good name for a metal band btw) to measure those outputs in order to create a better experience from the electro inputs.

To believe we can decode the mystery of our being admits to the heresy we are coded.

Maybe a digression, but I keep coming back to that Orson Welles speech in The Third Man, where Lime (Welles) hasn’t seen the victims of his penicillin substitution racket and therefore feels no guilt. They are up in the Ferris wheel, looking down at people who appear like ants below.

MARTINS
Have you ever seen any of your victims?

HARRY LIME
You know, I never feel comfortable on these sort of things. Victims? Don’t be melodramatic. Look down there. Tell me. Would you really feel any pity if one of those dots stopped moving forever? If I offered you twenty thousand pounds for every dot that stopped, would you really, old man, tell me to keep my money, or would you calculate how many dots you could afford to spare?

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