Explorations on occult reality #1-On the possibility of mechanistic occult realm

I begin this series on the exploration of occult reality because I was weary of the unserious and unrigourous claims about it that are rempent both from spiritual people and from the scientific community. I think we can give ourselves more serious tools as a ground to think about the occult, the spiritual, the unseen, and so on - such as being epistemologically carefull in choosing what to trust, but also using epistemology as a way to be strategically opened to possibilities in our philosophical investigations.

Also, well, pure science is a gem of philosophy and can produce lots of highly reliable and concrete results on the question of what is susceptible to be true. Scientific culture however is biased and have tendancies to avoid “weird” subjects, even if those are not confirmed to be impossible to study, even from scientific standards. Present empirical deadends or lack of imagination in methodology might not be the same in the future. At the very least lot of those subjects are not impossible on the plane of serious philosophical inquiry.

Because of the elusive nature of the unseen, whether what we find there is close to what we expect or goes way beyond, humans will be inevitably clumsy in their pursuit of this knowledge by the nature of their mental processes, as they are largely already when it comes to the seen world. Interesting to me is to find serious ways to go around that as far as our mental capabilities can do so.

This is quoted from Confucius’ Analects:

"Zilu asked how to serve the ghosts and spirits.
The Master said: “You are not yet able to serve people—how could you be able to serve ghosts and spirits?”
Zilu said: “May I venture to ask about death?"
The Master said: *“You do not yet understand life—how could you possibly understand death?””

While I agree with Confucius’ perspective, I choose here to go beyond it. I will use an explorative approach based on actual scientific knowledge to make more serious hypothesis and theories about the occult reality, although a lot of them will remain of hypothetical status for obvious reasons. For the word occult, I choose the definition of “what is hidden” or “what is beyond reach”.

Additionnally, I think there can be advantages - at least speaking for this life - to do some carefull leaps of faith about the unknown, which I will talk about in future opuses.

We do not know for sure what lies beyond and whether or not it has real implications for us - and this remains true whether we are secular or religious. This series is an attempt to see with you guys what serious possibilities lies in this beyond.

And now the first exploration.

On the possibility of a mechanistic occult realm

The seen reality veryseemingly is regimented by mechanisms, but I found interesting that a lot of people (and I include myself) have a tendency to represent themselves the possible spiritual/unseen/occult world as something chaotic, vague and simplistic while there is no reason for it not to be complex and somewhat “material” and mechanistic in a way more or less analoguous to what we already “know” from the seen, said physical world. When we put ourselves in the position of defending some occult possibilites we often make the mistake of confounding the materiality that is perceivable, assessable (with our human senses, methodologies and instruments) with an absence of the materiality in the unseen. Both seen and unseen world are sometimes interpreted as something as discontinouous, rather than continouous.

Take for example chemists doing experiments. When mixing different compounds, a flame, an explosion or an unexpected reaction might emerge in a way that is not going along with our intuition of the matter and the material world. Yet unexpected reactions are regimented by clear mechanisms when we observe and deduce beyond our normal sensory limitations. This appears however magical to our eyes and led to many conceptions on the beyond in the alchemical traditions. Arthur C. Clarke said that “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”. Similarly, some, in reality, quite complex phenomena could be indeed of occult/spiritual nature, but today simplified into vague and more or less porous theories as the unexplained phenomena of the past were.

Another exemple, is when Nicholas Tesla was doing his public demonstrations with alternative current, being capable to make appear lightnings seemingly out of the blue with is coil and other instruments, lots of people thought he was a sorcerer, and this is, again, a reaction to the previously unseen that we recurrently see in humans. Which makes you think about a lot of the traditions about the occult, the divine and the spiritual. That some valuable discoveries and experiences of unseen forces at play might have been interpreted in a loose, unmaterial and magical way. That some realities, some real mechanisms might have been simplified or have taken a form more understandable to the people experiencing or observing them while not being totally, directly or precisely understood at the time. Chakras for example, are theorized to be aligned with major secretory glands and organs in the human body, meaning that an intervention there or there on the body – either physical or psychological through placebo and suggestion – could have indeed have a measurable, or let’s rather say witnessable impact. Which demonstrate that the spiritual practice might have help maintain a knowledge that had functional repercussions.

Also, lot of rituals are quite rigorous, complex and have lot of regularity in their elements and practice - sometimes in a way that seems to approach a scientific experiment or operation and all the control of variables that needs to take place in this kind of settings - and although the reasons of why we would see an impact seemingly emerging from the ritual — whether it is because of a placebo or some spiritual mechanism — it is interesting because it suggests in both cases that an underlying mechanism is happening nonetheless. That’s why i tend to think that it is reasonable to believe that the unseen might be mechanistic, although sometimes elusive for our senses and instruments.

It is particularly interesting how we can bend and significantly change the phenomenological experience by altering brain regions, as studies on controlled, localised brain damage shows us. We can induce on command out-of-body experiences with transcranial magnetic stimulation. We can also induce in someone the fear of being chased or persecuted by entities - subjects often mention demons, secret agents, spirits, etc. - by stimulating in the same way some specific brain regions. Although those in themselves doesn’t cancel the possible “spiritual” reality of certain experiences which are commonly reported by people (astral projection and so on), it shows first of all that we can be easily be at the mercy of the influences of physiological processes and that we ought to be careful when interpreting seemingly spiritual experiences. Additionnally, it can suggest a mechanistic tendancy from which the occult and “spiritual” world could simply be a more or less smooth continuation of. Djinns in the muslim folklore for exemple are represented as some sort of hyperdimensional beings with the intellectual level and impulsivity approaching those of animals, who live for really long and who can sometimes interact with us in the seen, physical world and even influence our behaviors or thoughts. Hypothetically speaking it is interesting as a thought experiment to think how hyperdimensional beings of some kind could be influencing brain processes through real, concrete, but not yet known mechanisms - if those mechanisms are knowable at all. All of this remains highly hypothetical of course.

What do you guys think?

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For me, the time to believe in something is when there is reliable evidence for it. The world is full of claims, which ones should we take seriously and why?

What exactly do words like “supernatural”, “occult”, or “hidden realm” mean? We struggle enough to define concepts such as materialism, physicalism, and naturalism with precision.

Would you include Platonism in this category? Is mathematics evidence of a transcendent reality beyond the quotidian world?

Much significant philosophy is devoted to explorations of idealism. Do you include these traditions in your enquiries?

My own view is that human beings are storytellers, and our relationship with the world is often guided more by emotion than reason. We are drawn to ideas not simply because they might be true, but because they help us make meaning of our lives and experiences. Often this is because we were raised with such ideas or we come from a culture which privileges certain frames and stories.

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The late James Randi relates a meeting with 2 paranormal investigators. They were a scientifically studying psychic phenomena i.e. they were the real deal, putting every ESP claim through a gauntlet of scientific tests. it was roughly their 3rd decade on the job and of all the claims they tested, the number of positive results = 0.

An atheist mentions the bell curve in his debates. He talks about the tails of the bell curve. He places himself in one of them and informs his audience that some of them won’t be able to get it. He was an evangelical preacher, spoke in tongues and had religious experiences. He could, if he wished, enter these states of altered consciousness at will even now, as a confirmed atheist. He attributed the goosebumps he used to get when communing with God to the holy spirit. He realizes now that goosebumps are evidence for evolution, a neat way to stay warm.

Love the paranormal field just doubt mostly everything publically about it thats available. Anything that is real is usually covered up pretty fast.

When it comes to your conclusions though, to be honest, i’m hesitant to get involved with any groups mainly for the same reasons that Confucious raised from my position. This is because it can be hard to work with others. Even within your post, I disagree with some of the points you raised as a example. To me, this requires exceptional people to pull off properly. Most who do dabble are in it for the thrills from my experience which admittedly originates from hollywood or entertainment adaptions like watching a viral video that most likely has a goal of achieving likes over maintaining accountability to the field of paranormal research.

One tip that I think is important for anyone considering entering the field as a beginner though is that under stress, exhaustion, or grief, the brain’s internal filters can degrade. It struggles to separate external reality from internal thoughts, dreams, or anxieties, leading to vivid hallucinations. (Referenced from online medical sites)

there is a mechanic system underlying infinite creation in it, see the letters of hebrew and arabic. there is a unknown system to decode them .but even solving them and knowing everything ,that is still an illusion, by the jinn. The first step will be , to understand the infinity in limit in understanding those letter.

Yes, reliable scientific evidence however tell us at best what is the most susceptible to be true according to present evidence. I think of course most of the questions we ask ourselves on the occult might be left unanswered by empirical studies, but it’s interesting to try to go beyond what we know with extensive scientific knowledge as a bagage, as a tool to make more serious hypothesis on what is beyond what is perceivable. A bit like a serious science fiction work.

Yes, I think it’s also interesting to try to go beyond the practices and stories we grew up with to see maybe some of their limitations but also compare their advantages. Although I would say that some people are doing way better in life being religious growing up than those who didn’t. There are exceptions of course. At least you have a ground to sit on and can sometimes more easily go beyond what you’ve been exposed intellectually when you’re old enough. The best is to be able to integrate those stories you had growing up in a healthy way once your older. Being totally secular growing up is quite tough from what I’ve seen.
I re-read Joseph Campbell recently and - combined with other things I read, experienced and so on - I would say that he was right that we need myths - in the large sense of the word - and spiritual-like practices for us to bathe in meaningful lives, feel its rapture. Maybe combined with a larger cautious psychological engineering of our human systems of some sort it could be more complete, that’s another story though.

Totally agree, I simplified and referenced to the intuitive sense of the terms here to make it more digestible.
I refer in my exploration to the scientific community’s phenomenology of the physical world and what is not yet discovered about it. And yes a bit like Plato’s Ideal realm I mean overall to assess and make hypothesis about the ultimate absolute reality.

I made additions and edits to the original post by the way.

You know I use to despise so much the paranormal shows always going to deadends haha. Not surprised.

His explanation for the goosebumps, at least as you relate it, is not incorrect, but quite partial, even for scientific vulgarisation standards. I’ve written a neuroscience paper on altered states for some lab course and I must say that it’s quite interesting to see the complexity involved and the similarities between them - trances, meditation, psychedelics, out of body experiences, NDEs, etc. I suggest you to read about the REBUS model for personnal curiousity which is a neurobiological model of psychedelic states, really mind blowing considering the activity and connectivity involved touches similar areas found in other altered states. Neurophenomenological studies are truly fascinating also in this field.

Additionnally, I would say that people often make the mistake to think that God and evolution are not compatible - we understand where it is coming from of course with the creationist currents within abrahamic religions who try to forcefully overlook one of the most heavily evidence-supported scientific theory to this day - but to scientific epistemology standards our knowledge stops before we can have evidence that spit the definitive answer.

@Tom_Storm @Johnathanrs @Scorpion @GemilAleph

I made additions and edits to the post that might answer some of your questions. Thanks for your replies!

Nice quote. I think this covers my position.

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Interestingly, Confucius heavily emphasized on the importance of rituals to organize almost every part of life and society, although scholars seems to agree that he was most probably agnostic, so his rituals were of social and secular nature basically. The necessity of myth and ritual like practices is quite an interesting subject.

You are approaching this from a scientific perspective, but I am failing to find your concluding objective and what you are trying to accomplish? In your opening statements/thesis, you provide a clear way on approaching this, that these two fields are compatible and this is how you believe we should move forward. Where is the meat?

There are, by my guess, thousands of books out there that go over frameworks, some built from scratch, some already established, that we could go over on how to approach this. We could build one from scratch. The list goes on. Oh captain my captain where are we heading or should I go to sleep now and come back in a thousand years?

Yes, I noticed this. I’m allergic to any kind of ritual so that’s where I depart. :wink:

As I said, this post is very explorative and kind of easy going for me, there is not so much conclusions per say, just reflexions. The goal, the “meat” for me lies in opening epistemologically reasonable doors on what is hidden/unreachable and maybe re-evaluate the traditions of the past, thinking about spiritual thinking itself and so on. Epistemology makes cracks in the scientific-culture-fed aura of certainty. I kind of want to see through the cracks, just guess what is out there - kinda for the fun of it not gonna lie, although it can have a more serious implication for some questions. To make hypothesis that have bit more “substance” than unsubstiaciated and heavily biased claims we are usually used to on the topic. I a bit arrogantly believe that (almost) any other ways of making claims or hypothesis on the topic might actually not have “meat” at all in the first place or leaves me on my hunger through the lurking doubt, although I am always opened to have my mind bent :slight_smile:

I kinda edited my reply 5 times in a row, sorry about that haha

Defend this! If you want to have your mind bent, and to not bend other minds, whose the captain then? You know, the one looking to blow the mind for the audience members? (aka the readers) To me, this feels a bit like hailing a taxi and asking other passengers where to drive—fine for a casual scenic route, but slow if you’re trying to get somewhere specific.

I’ll set my hibernation cycle for time-dilation mode so I wake up right when Part 2 drops with the actual framework. Looking forward to seeing what someone comes up with. We have setup a stage for you to wow us.

Haha love your analogies. Kinda normal though on a forum to ask for people’s perspectives. Don’t necessarilly wanna blow the mind of anybody, maybe make them think a little at best and have feedbakcs. Quite conscious it will not click perfectly with everyone, no problem with that :upside_down_face:

Also by meat you meant like coming up with a proof of ghosts or something? Cause yeah I mean obviously I won’t come up with that today haha

I don’t really know how this can be done. Can we even investigate that which falls outside empirical domains? Speculative theories can always be made to sound plausible, but it’s not clear to me how we can evaluate them in any meaningful way. You would need to provide an example of how it’s done. The only one I know of is the approach used ad nauseam by UFO researchers and afterlife investigators: a compilation of testimony.

For me, science is the most reliable pathway to establishing best available explanations. It does not make proclamations about ultimate truth. It should be science, not scientism: methodological naturalism, not metaphysical naturalism.

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In mechanist philosophy, the substance usually comes from defining how we approach a specific mechanism, what its boundaries are, and how we could theoretically evaluate it as someone has already pointed out. Without those constraints established, we’re not getting anywhere. For this exploration to actually have meat, the captain needs to provide those constraints for us to evaluate.

I don’t have anything against doing research into the paranormal and nor do I deny that there are interesting views on it. It’s just that tests until now have been negative.

I’m also on a tail of the bell curve. Perhaps I’m prone to fantasizing.

Well really briefly (this could take a whole opus or more), one standpoint on which any of this can be considered meaningful is at the very least on the practical level - that is the impact on a psychological level like the bit about rituals for exemple or on how we may re-orient thinking on odd subjects like the bit on chackras. Otherwise it’s just about rigourously-ish build fantasies if I can say it like this, which we can’t say if there is ramifications or not, like the bit about djinns. Just interesting to think about on a forum, not necessarilly my usual philosophical endeavour. I’m usually someone who is hard to convince on spiritual mathers, so I kinda wanna see if someone here could change that - even on a more strictly (hopefully rigourous) hypothetical level, or even practical for that mather.

That which is hidden is not necessarily hidden by its own devices.
For example, people themselves may hide from such things simply because they are informed it is “evil” to be curious about those things let alone practice.

And let’s face it…science is the practice part of discovery…

I have done some practice re ideomotor over many years and the things I have learned through that continue to gain my respect and attention.

I reject supernaturalism on the grounds that is fails as an explanatory function - not uncovering but wilfully covering up, with warning signs not to “go there” alongside consequences of doing so.

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