Do you believe that time is real or an illusion?

Time has always been one of the most intriguing concepts in both philosophy and science. On the one hand, it feels undeniable—our daily lives are structured around it, we observe it in the ticking of clocks and the changing of seasons, and we even experience it subjectively as a sequence of moments. However, the question arises: is time truly real, or is it merely an illusion created by our perception? Philosophers have long debated whether time exists independently of the mind, or if it is simply a human construct, a way for us to make sense of change and continuity in the universe.

The debate centers around two major perspectives. On one side, supporters of the “real time” view argue that time is a fundamental aspect of the universe, one that shapes the fabric of reality itself, independent of human experience. On the other hand, those who lean toward the “illusion” argument suggest that time is a psychological construct, a result of how we perceive the flow of events rather than something that exists outside our minds. This philosophical conundrum challenges us to reconsider our understanding of the world, questioning not only the nature of time but also the way we experience reality itself.

Do you really experience time as a sequence of moments? I believe that I experience it as continuous, without any distinct moments.

I don’t see how anyone could make a respectable argument for time as an illusion. Look at how you describe it “how we perceive the flow of events”. Doesn’t this premise, “flow of events” imply time which is outside our minds? How could there be a flow without time?

Kant said we know time a priori—it’s built into us, into our minds. It’s part of human nature. That makes sense to me. Konrad Lorenz wrote that Kant’s a priori knowledge results from Darwinian evolution. That also makes sense to me.

I think this is true, and it certainly is the way I think about it, but it’s my understanding that most or all scientific principles can be expressed without reference to time, for example, in terms of energy.

But “energy” has time built into it, as velocity.

Some forms of energy can be expressed in terms of velocity. Velocity can also be expressed in terms of energy. Neither is primary. Energy can be measured independent of velocity and time. As I understand it, expressing energy independent of time is common in physics. Please don’t ask me for more detail because I’ve already gone a few steps into my zone of ignorance.

Maybe velocity could be avoided by putting time into another parameter, but the quantity of energy can’t be determined without a time factor. Even a supposed “equilibrium” has a time factor, as not changing as time passes. That would allow time to escape the equation, but it’s still there as a premise.

Sure it can. I could crash a moving mass into a target and then measure the damage to the target. That would tell me how much energy was in the mass without ever knowing or caring about the velocity.

Like my dear friend @Mww , I have deep sympathies for transcendental idealism in this regard. Time definitely exists but I have no reason to posit that it does beyond the a priori modes of my cognition; which is different than it being a ‘psychological concept’ like some modern thinkers think (I suppose).

I suggest this is a false dichotomy based on the mistaken premise that we are capable of knowing the world as it exists independently of the mind. This arises from the stance of empiricist philosophy, which seeks to understand the world devoid of any trace of subjectivity so as to see it as it is in itself. It is natural for a scientist to view the matter this way, as from within the scientific reference frame, humans are among the phenomena which are subject to scientific analysis. But it is grounded in the mistaken view that empirical perception— the acquisition of knowledge directly through sensory experience (seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, mediated by instruments) is able to obtain a perspective that is not contingent upon the nature of those very faculties.

For practical purposes, we can view the world as if it were independent of any mind. That is methodological naturalism. But this then surreptitiously morphs into the understanding that we really do see the world as it is independently of us — which is metaphysical naturalism. But we do not. What we see is inextricably connected with the kinds of minds we have, to which perception of time and space are foundational. But that is much more than ‘simply a human construct’, as if it were something easily cast aside or seen through.

Schopenhauer, How Time Began with the First Eye that Opened

We cannot understand how… one state could ever experience a chemical change, if there did not exist a second state to affect it. Thus the same difficulty appears in chemistry which Epicurus met with in mechanics. For he had to show how the first atom departed from the original direction of its motion. Indeed this contradiction, which… can neither be escaped nor solved, might quite properly be set up as a chemical antinomy…

…We see ever more clearly that what is chemical can never be referred to what is mechanical, nor what is organic to what is chemical or electrical. Those who in our own day are entering anew on this old, misleading path, will soon slink back silent and ashamed, as all their predecessors have done before them… Materialism… even at its birth, has death in its heart, because it ignores the subject and the forms of knowledge, which are presupposed, just as much in the case of the crudest matter, from which it desires to start, as in that of the organism, at which it desires to arrive. For, “no object without a subject,” is the principle which renders all materialism for ever impossible. Suns and planets without an eye that sees them, and an understanding that knows them, may indeed be spoken of in words, but for the idea, these words are absolutely meaningless.

On the other hand, the law of causality and the treatment and investigation of nature which is based upon it, lead us necessarily to the conclusion that, in time, each more highly organised state of matter has succeeded a cruder state: so that the lower animals existed before men, fishes before land animals, plants before fishes, and the unorganised before all that is organised; that, consequently, the original mass had to pass through a long series of changes before the first eye could be opened. And yet, the existence of this whole world remains ever dependent upon the first eye that opened, even if it were that of an insect. For such an eye is a necessary condition of the possibility of knowledge, and the whole world exists only in and for knowledge, and without it is not even thinkable. The world is entirely idea, and as such demands the knowing subject as the supporter of its existence. This long course of time itself, filled with innumerable changes, through which matter rose from form to form till at last the first percipient creature appeared,—this whole time itself is only thinkable in the identity of a consciousness whose succession of ideas, whose form of knowing it is, and apart from which, it loses all meaning and is nothing at all.

Thus we see, on the one hand, the existence of the whole world necessarily dependent upon the first conscious being, however undeveloped it may be; on the other hand, this conscious being just as necessarily entirely dependent upon a long chain of causes and effects which have preceded it, and in which it itself appears as a small link. These two contradictory points of view, to each of which we are led with the same necessity, we might again call an antinomy in our faculty of knowledge… The necessary contradiction which at last presents itself to us here, finds its solution in the fact that, to use Kant’s phraseology, time, space, and causality do not belong to the thing-in-itself, but only to its phenomena, of which they are the form; which in my language means this: The objective world, the world as idea, is not the only side of the world, but merely its outward side; and it has an entirely different side—the side of its inmost nature—its kernel—the thing-in-itself… But the world as idea… only appears with the opening of the first eye. Without this medium of knowledge it cannot be, and therefore it was not before it. But without that eye, that is to say, outside of knowledge, there was also no before, no time. Thus time has no beginning, but all beginning is in time.

Since, however, it is the most universal form of the knowable, in which all phenomena are united together through causality, time, with its infinity of past and future, is present in the beginning of knowledge. The phenomenon which fills the first present must at once be known as causally bound up with and dependent upon a sequence of phenomena which stretches infinitely into the past, and this past itself is just as truly conditioned by this first present, as conversely the present is by the past. Accordingly the past out of which the first present arises, is, like it, dependent upon the knowing subject, without which it is nothing. It necessarily happens, however, that this first present does not manifest itself as the first, that is, as having no past for its parent, but as being the beginning of time. It manifests itself rather as the consequence of the past, according to the principle of existence in time. In the same way, the phenomena which fill this first present appear as the effects of earlier phenomena which filled the past, in accordance with the law of causality. Those who like mythological interpretations may take the birth of Kronos, the youngest of the Titans, as a symbol of the moment here referred to at which time appears, though, indeed it has no beginning; for with him, since he ate his father, the crude productions of heaven and earth cease, and the races of gods and men appear upon the scene.

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Much has been written about time in physics, in philosophy and in other fields. Little has been agreed upon. Time seems to be one of those things we sort of assume and seems one of our hard core commonsense beliefs about the nature of life and experience. Yet do we experience time? We experience the changing of the seasons, the risings and settings of the sun, the moon, the stars. So we experience change, flux, process but do we experience time itself? We measure time by these changes, by the revolution of the earth on its axis, or the planet around the sun, the oscillations of a quartz crystal, the swinging of a pendulum, the vibrations of a cesium atom. So I think what we experience is change, is process, is flux, is flow but we do not experience time directly. In fact with Einstein (although in a different sense) I believe time does not exist as an independent entity, time is an illusion (a derived and secondary concept) from the process that is reality. In a frozen universe, without change, time would cease to be a meaningful or even useful conception. “Time is an illusion, albeit a persistent one”. Time has no independent existence other than the processes of reality from which the conception arises.

:100:

Welcome to the new philosophyforum platform, and good to see you.

It’s perhaps time to tend to your topic

It can be both. I mean, clocks measure it, which indicates it’s more than illusion, but the actual nature of time seems to bear little resemblance to one’s experience of it.

Our perception of it is very much built in, which serves the purpose of making us fit, rather than the purpose of knowing the actual nature of it.

Energy is meaningless without time. Energy, in short, is the capacity to do work, and doing work is meaningless without time. Physics without time is sort of the subject of statics, but even that cannot avoid it. I mean, what is force/stress in the absence of time? Force is completely meaningless without time, yet statics is all about it.

‘Frozen’ in this context implies ‘unchanging over time’, which references time. The Mandelbrot set is an example of a timeless structure, as opposed to a frozen one.
I do agree that time is meaningless in a universe where nothing changes over time, not even non-motion changes like color.

Good! I find it to be a mistake to describe time as an ‘entity’ at all. Makes it sound like an object.

And I second the welcome to the forum!

I agree with this.

I don’t agree with this. t = d*sqrt(m/2K) where t is time, K is kinetic energy, d is distance, and m is mass. If time is expressible in terms of energy, why does it make sense to consider it more foundational? As I said in my previous post, it is my understanding that physicists do this all the time.

I think there are some finer distinctions needed to be made here. We notice change, as “change” is a concept which implies comparison of two distinct things. So change is inferred. However, we do experience the passing of time, as activity, what you might call “process”. “flux” or “flow”.

Notice the difference between those three and “change”. “Change” implies explicitly a before and after, while the other three refer to an ongoing activity which is the medium between before and after. So if you say “changing” you refer directly to the medium between before and after. And if we are experiencing things changing then we must be experiencing the passing of time.

“Moving mass” is a temporal concept. So you are just disguising your reference to time, within a complex concept.

What NoAxioms said is that energy is meaningless without time, not that time is expressed in terms of energy. It’s more like the inverse, that energy is expressed in terms of time, therefore “energy” would be a meaningless word without time. “Time” is logically prior to “energy”.

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It’s certainly not an illusion, as time can be measured to minute fractions of a second by scientific instruments (A zeptosecond , representing one trillionth of a billionth of a second, as been measured.) But the act of measurement is intrinsic to the nature of time.

To examine the measurements involved in clock time, Henri Bergson considers an oscillating pendulum, moving back and forth. At each moment, the pendulum occupies a different position in space, like the points on a line or the moving hands on a clockface. In the case of a clock, the current state – the current time – is what we call ‘now’. Each successive ‘now’ of the clock contains nothing of the past because each moment, each unit, is separate and distinct. But this is not how we experience time. Instead, we hold these separate moments together in our memory. We unify them. A physical clock measures a succession of moments, but only experiencing duration allows us to recognise these seemingly separate moments as a succession. Clocks don’t measure time; we do. This is why Bergson believed that clock time presupposes lived time.

Clock Time Contra Lived Time, Evan Thompson

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What then is time? If no one asks I know. If I wish to explain it to someone who asks, I know not ~ St. Augustine

Time is money

If it is an illusion, it’s a really good illusion. If it’s real, it’s a really bad real. So either a master magician or an inept deity (absit iniuria).

Considering the passage of time: It seems like everything is changing from one state to another, or evolving constantly. A flower, instead of having time in it’s life cycle, has a change of state, including decay. We measure that process with a thing called time. The flower knows no time that way. It exists in an evolving state. Even a cat does not know time. But we do, because we invented it, because we have the mind for it, as a utility. The universe seems to have no relationship with it, except as we conceptualize its relationship with gravity and space–the space-time continuum. Therefore, I think that our construct of time is real for us, and the universe has no illusions; it has “is,” as in the “I am.” Or, something like that.

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I could say, and I would be serious saying it, that you just disguising your reference to energy when you talk about time and motion.

Where is time when we’re talking about potential energy, or chemical energy, or nuclear energy?

Time is as real as things themselves; it is a principle. In a metaphorical sense, it is the expansion that enables a thing to persist and acquire an identity. But this cannot be conceived without space, since a thing differentiates itself and occupies a place; its identity consists in distinguishing itself. Hegel quite rightly said that time is the truth of space and space is the truth of time.

Space is not space as a homogeneous extension, but the movement by which something separates from itself in order to articulate itself. It is the condition of possibility for temporal succession.

And on the other hand, for A to be defined by its difference from B, there must be a movement of deferral, a deferring towards another that already implies a ‘later’, a postponement.

Time and space are mutually implicated in the same movement, and this mutual implication is the condition of possibility for identity.