Afaik, “life” at bottom is an autocatalyic (i.e. chemically emergent) molecular self-replicating process manifest in at least three modes of “metabolism”, “growth” and “reproduction” which gradually adapt/mutate blindly in “descent through natural selection” potentially giving rise over geological time-scales to autopoietic (i.e. biologically emergent) ecosystems of countless varieties of microbiota, flora and fauna (e.g. humans^). Whatever does not in some measureable way metabolize, grow and reproduce is “not alive” in any recognizable sense (e.g. “viruses” are an edge case) – but what the hell do I/we know? “Alive” and “not alive”, by the way, are just human categories^ – according to animists, spiritualists, idealists – which seem more epistemically convenient than ontologically correct or exhaustive.
Agreed. Mere lump of atoms in rocks, soils, minerals or meteorites cannot be part of living or life.
Only the atoms configured in the delicate and complex form which metabolize, grow, evolve and reproduce as a complete biological organism seem to be able to generate life.
[quote=“BestGuessYet, post:80, topic:415”]
Yes. My mind put me inside its copy of my bedroom.
When you say your “mind” you are speaking about you brain, yes?
In an OOBE it might shift my perspective… and so patients in distress might find themselves viewing the operating room (hallucination?) from above.
How does your brain know what “from above” looks like, that it could construct that for you to experience?
They say that in crises, like a pending car crash, the person might switch and see it from outside the car.
How does the “switching” occur?
But I’ve heard that they’ve done tests—placing objects on top of cabinets in ORs–and the floaters do not report seeing them. That would argue for the OR being the mind’s reconstruction.
No RE-construction - construction. But “they” are not saying how an individual’s brain is able to construct anything. There is a gap in that explanation…
The neuroscientists (see: Incognito, by Eagleman) claim we are experiencing hallucination all the time.
The claim appears to anthropomorphise the brain…Eagleman (Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain) - but are we then left with the understanding that the brain has a separate consciousness which constructs “hallucinations” and uses these to play tricks on a less informed aspect of consciousness that it controls or manipulates?
We don’t see the world, but rather our mind’s reconstruction of it–hopefully adjusted by new sensory info as we go. I have seen evidence in my own life which seems to support that view.
This implies that brains gather more data than they give out. What isn’t explained is how said brains gather the data which then allows said brains to construct elaborate visuals - sometimes (even often) of things which don’t even match our own own reality experience.
If those brain functions are to be labelled as “unconscious” then how is one to explain how the brain “constructs” anything?
So yes…“hallucinations” are a convenient hand-waving label for yet one more explanational gap in our ongoing pursuit of correct and true knowledge.
Life is a product of self-contained, self-regulating, tiny packages of highly complex chemistry called cells.
Every cell has its own life.
The cells in any one human being are connected and orchestrated into a highly regulated symphony of biochemistry.
Roughly, yes. I don’t trust it much myself. Not entirely.
Well, it knows about perspective. It’s the one which created perspective in the first place, I think. And as I say, the executive function seems to be dumbed down–at least during my experiences. I am not able to examine things as closely as I could during normal business hours. I feel quite certain about what I’m experiencing, but as I say, I investigated and found errors. The doctors put objects on top of cabinets and the OOBE patients failed to describe them later. (I think. Check me.)
You’ll have to read the neuroscientists. I am not one.
That’s close to my understanding, although I don’t know that it’s intentionally doing so. But yeah, the ego/narrator has a bunch of stuff hidden away from it. You don’t consciously control the beating of your heart. The guys in the back room do that. Good thing. I’ve got enough plates to keep spinning without all that.
Sure. I don’t think there’s much doubt about that. Can you recite your endocrine levels right now?
Through the senses, mostly. And through best guesses, often quite off-kilter and not matching what we’ve directly experienced. I’ve never seen a 20-foot tall purple rabbit, but other people claim that they have. There are enough such reports that I am inclined to believe many of them are true. Maybe read Oliver Sacks’ book Hallucinations.
I am not a neuroscientist. Sorry. But I had an unusual experience once. In the midst of an existential crisis, I saw an image which resolved the crisis. Those guys in the back room showed it to me… is my best guess. So I’m pretty sure they can do it, whether or not I can explain how.
I mean, it could’ve been God showing me a burning bush, but that explanation is pretty far down on my list of probabilities. What are the odds?
I don’t really believe in true and correct knowledge. I live in a black and silent cave. I think all we have are our best guesses yet.
But I’m curious: Are you denying that people have hallucinations?
A cell is live when it is in a living body with other cells making up the organs or skin in the body. A cell itself separated from the body has no life.
Of course cells each have their own life. They are the basic unit of life.
Right now, there are many cells in your body being born and dying. Bone marrow and skin have exceptionally high rates of turnover.
Specialized cells, such as neurons in the brain, do not replicate, but rather we see a vast die-off in the first few years of life as the brain develops connections between neurons.
Now, the cells that make up you have evolved to depend upon the organism, this is true.
That doesn’t mean cells themselves have life. Here is a question for you. What is life? What is the definition of life? What do living beings do? What are the signs for being life?
What now? You reject Cell Theory??
Life is a product of functioning cells.
Living things are self-contained, self-organized, self-regulating (related to homeostasis), perform metabolism, grow and develop, reproduce, respond to stimuli, adapt and evolve.
I wasn’t rejecting anything. You are saying “reject”. It doesn’t matter whatever they say. It is not relevant. It is not life we are talking about in philosophy and metaphysics.
We are looking for far more and higher than that low level.
Fair enough. But can a single cell or a piece of skin cells from your finger perform all that?
Here we need to differentiate between single-celled organisms and multicellular organisms.
I would say that the only “life characteristic” that may not apply to cells in multicellular organisms is the “adapt and evolve” - but I wouldn’t be surprised to come across some research that says that cells in multicellular organisms were shown to do that!
But - evolution happens at the species level -
So, the entire list would certainly apply to single-celled organisms, like bacteria and protists, but in multicellular organisms we see cell specialization, so the ability to “go your own way” may be lost.
Indeed, if cells in a multicellular organisms “go their own way” that is what we call cancer
Whatever the case, it seems meaningless to talk about life without accompanying consciousness, or signs of consciousness. We are not interested in life of some cells growing in a glass jar in the dark corner of the laboratory with no mind or ability to speak.
We are interested in the possibility of the human life after death, possibly in some other parts of the universe as some form of living body still enjoying daily life sipping wines, listening to the music and talking to the fellow dead mates transmigrated from the dreaded earth to the hopefully better afterlife world. I have a funny feeling that this is what the OP is about. Not cells.
I have read about a billionaire bloke injecting @1 million$ yearly cost of specially prepared food and liquid to his body everyday to stay young forever. Not sure if this bloke will live forever, even after death. His real age is late 40s, but his face still looks like late teens, they said.
Roughly, yes. I don’t trust it much myself. Not entirely.
Which don’t you trust? The idea that “the mind” refers to “the brain” or you don’t trust your brain?
Well, it knows about perspective. It’s the one which created perspective in the first place, I think. And as I say, the executive function seems to be dumbed down–at least during my experiences. I am not able to examine things as closely as I could during normal business hours. I feel quite certain about what I’m experiencing, but as I say, I investigated and found errors. The doctors put objects on top of cabinets and the OOBE patients failed to describe them later. (I think. Check me.)
If you are making the argument, are you doing so without checking for yourself?
How does the brain “know” anything if it is not aware of itself and surroundings?
You’ll have to read the neuroscientists. I am not one.
So where are you presently getting your information?
That’s close to my understanding, although I don’t know that it’s intentionally doing so.
Yet, that is how it is worded…
But yeah, the ego/narrator has a bunch of stuff hidden away from it. You don’t consciously control the beating of your heart.
Yet here we are discussing things beyond those capabilities. We are talking about the belief that the brain constructs very complex alternate realities…
The guys in the back room do that.
Oh, so now there are “many” involved rather than simply one brain orchestrating things. Why should we believe that a brain has a different consciousness that the one we experience let along a whole bunch of different ones?
Good thing. I’ve got enough plates to keep spinning without all that.
You have enough to think about without having to dig any deeper than necessary…
Through the senses, mostly. And through best guesses, often quite off-kilter and not matching what we’ve directly experienced. I’ve never seen a 20-foot tall purple rabbit, but other people claim that they have.
Can you provide any evidence to support this is the case?
There are enough such reports that I am inclined to believe many of them are true.
I though you were arguing that they are hallucinations?
Maybe read Oliver Sacks’ book Hallucinations.
What in the book have you read which makes you inclined to believe these are true?
I don’t think there’s much doubt about that. Can you recite your endocrine levels right now?
Are you suggesting that a brain can?
I am not a neuroscientist. Sorry.
Do you think it would help at all if you were?
But I had an unusual experience once. In the midst of an existential crisis, I saw an image which resolved the crisis. Those guys in the back room showed it to me… is my best guess. So I’m pretty sure they can do it, whether or not I can explain how.
Now we are touching on Jung’s Archetypes. Now we can ask why the brain would give us such experiences. What does it want us to know? How does it see the one it want to know?
I mean, it could’ve been God showing me a burning bush, but that explanation is pretty far down on my list of probabilities. What are the odds?
So, Moses’ brains was telling Moses that it was “God”? And when Moses wanted more information, his brain replied “I am that I am”?
I don’t really believe in true and correct knowledge. I live in a black and silent cave. I think all we have are our best guesses yet.
But I’m curious: Are you denying that people have hallucinations?
That depends on what is meant by “having hallucinations” and what is said to be the source of these…
It seems life after death is highly unlikely possibility. What we have left in time in this life, seems all we have. Suppose this is where nihilism and existentialism are partly based on.
Today and now is the most important, and only time we have in life. Don’t waste it.
I don’t trust the guys in the back room to always give it to me straight. They are not intellectuals. They are survivalists.
The brain is not aware of itself and its surroundings? That doesn’t sound right to me. How could it help us survive if that were the case?
I read widely and think deeply, building my best guess yet as I go. Then I put it naked upon the field of debate battle and see if it survives the slings and arrows. If it doesn’t, I toss it.
Oh, goodness. See: “metaphor”.
Right. If I had to consciously track my endocrine levels, it would be less time for thinking about important stuff.
That people have seen 20-foot tall purple rabbits? Well, how could that evidence be anything other than anecdotal? There’s lots of that.
I don’t understand your question. You’re asking why I’m inclined to believe that people have had hallucinations? Well, the overwhelming number of reports, I guess. Plus, I myself have had a couple, during my lucid dreams.
Yes. I am suggesting that our brains control our endocrine levels, along with many other matters which the narrator knows nothing about.
Now we are touching on Jung’s Archetypes.
Never read him. Don’t know him.
Now we can ask why the brain would give us such experiences. What does it want us to know? How does it see the one it want to know?
We are a creature made to survive. I assume the guys in the back room wanted to help me survive. It’s just my best guess. They showed me an image which allowed me to become comfortable with my nature. Something like that. It resolved the existential crisis I was trapped in.
As for how they came up with that image, it’s a question I’ve spent much time considering. It’s a little freaky. It almost seems like they are capable of rational thought, but I suspect they just scrolled through a bunch of images and liked that one best and so showed it to me. I dunno. I am only a lowly witness. I saw what I saw.
So, Moses’ brains was telling Moses that it was “God”? And when Moses wanted more information, his brain replied “I am that I am”?
That’s my best guess, yes.
If you disagree, it’s fine. Tell me why. Why give that one anecdote special weight? [Anyway, wasn’t that Abraham? It’s been a long time. Maybe I’ve got them mixed up.]
That depends on what is meant by “having hallucinations” and what is said to be the source of these…
Let’s toss the word. Are you denying that humans sometimes see things which the humans around them cannot see?
Unfortunately afterlife theories almost certainly signify a tragic testament to the human imagination.
Then who has the role of being the “intellectual”?
The brain is not aware of itself and its surroundings? That doesn’t sound right to me. How could it help us survive if that were the case?
In what way does the brain “help us to survive”?
In what way is the brain “aware of itself and its surroundings”?
Oh, goodness. See: “metaphor”.
If this metaphor brought you to this place, then what good was this metaphor?
I myself have had a couple, during my lucid dreams.
Would you count dreams as being hallucinations?
I am suggesting that our brains control our endocrine levels, along with many other matters which the narrator knows nothing about.
Do you think that this control is automated or consciously active?
Never read him. Don’t know him.
Is there a way in which you can and if so, would you?
We are a creature made to survive.
Are we? Or are we the ones who made not only the creature forms but also the whole environment the creature forms exist within?
I assume the guys in the back room wanted to help me survive. It’s just my best guess.
Is the metaphor really useful or even accurate?
Perhaps “the guys in the back room” are not even in your brain, but are in a connected dimension (universe) and assisting you from that position?
They showed me an image which allowed me to become comfortable with my nature.
What image and what nature?
It resolved the existential crisis I was trapped in.
What crisis? Perhaps that will help the reader to understand your position at this point.
As for how they came up with that image, it’s a question I’ve spent much time considering. It’s a little freaky. It almost seems like they are capable of rational thought, but I suspect they just scrolled through a bunch of images and liked that one best and so showed it to me. I dunno. I am only a lowly witness. I saw what I saw.
What did you see?
So, Moses’ brains was telling Moses that it was “God”? And when Moses wanted more information, his brain replied “I am that I am”?
That’s my best guess, yes. If you disagree, it’s fine. Tell me why.
Because it means that to accept this interpretation, one has to anthropomorphise brains, which in turn leads to a variety of problems which require solutions.
Let’s toss the word. Are you denying that humans sometimes see things which the humans around them cannot see?
No. I am denying the idea that human brains are the source of this phenomena. Nor am I arguing that human brains are not involved…just not the source.
I look at the idea that the human form is only capable of relaying a fraction of the spectrum of what can be experienced and that this capability is not a uniform thing as it varies from form to form.
This is to say, that if someone had been with Moses at the time Moses saw the burning bush and heard the voice from that vision, they may have seen and heard nothing but just because that is the case, does not mean what Moses experienced was not real.
And that is what is being examined here. We can toss the word “hallucination” and replace it with the word “vision” and still be no closer to knowing what exactly we are speaking of in terms of “real”.
The narrator. The conscious self. The voice that is speaking to you.
It makes us feel hungry, and so we eat. It reacts with alarm when we see a charging grizzly, and so we climb a tree. Stuff like that. Not to mention all the internal regulation it does. I’m pretty sure it’s why the thing exists.
We have sense organs which react to stimuli. The brain organizes those sensations into its best guess of the nature of the world.
What good is it to be brought to wisdom by a metaphor? I dunno. I think of wisdom as a good thing… is all I can answer.
Well, yes. But our executive control is usually unhooked somehow. In a lucid dream, not so much. The conscious part of our brain is still onhand somehow… or parts of it.
Well, I can’t consciously change my heart rate, just by thinking, but some people purportedly can. I can’t make myself feel hungry. It just happens.
I doubt I will ever read Jung. I have an attitude about studying other thinkers. It’s just a thing I have.
Lost me. Sorry. Maybe ask it a different way?
Precisely accurate. A fine metaphor indeed. The best one I’ve ever heard. I am pretty proud that I made it myself… but not overly proud, of course.
Perhaps. Maybe you should write a story about that. It would be interesting, if you do a good job of it.
I don’t want to hijack the thread with my personal stories. It was an image of a man-sized boulder in a sandstorm, and it allowed me to continue to live without knowing what is true. It allowed my curious nature to survive.
The obligation to know what is true as set beside the need to continually change my beliefs according to new data. I accepted myself as the thing which the backroom guys showed me—a boulder in a sandstorm, always being reshaped.
If one has to anthropomorphize brains in order to believe that Abraham was talking to himself, I wonder why I have never anthropomorphized brains?
Well, that’s a fine opinion. I don’t mind that you hold it.
Lost me again.
Yeah. Who knows. All we can do is make our best guesses yet, I think.
Right. I don’t see how it matters which word we use, so long as we agree roughly what we’re trying to mean with it.