Time is just your perception. “Now, before or after” is just words expressing your perception of the order of the events perceived.
Once one’s perception vanishes from the world with bodily death, there is no time and no universe to the dead.
The world will still exist as it has done for billions of years, but that is just an imagination of the living while living. Once dead, even that imagination becomes nothing.
Philosophers can exist outside of their life death time boundary. Consider Socrates, Plato, Aristotle … Kant Hegel Nietzsche etc.
They have all died biologically long time ago, but their ideas and thoughts are still alive and existing in the form of their writings and sayings via others’ mind, who follow, read, criticise or agree with them.
It could be said that they have the extended virtual life of identities manifested in their ideas, thoughts and writings. If immortality is possible, could it be the extended virtual life?
Immortality could be achieved by philosophers, if they could write great books in their life time. Even after their physical death, their ideas and thoughts will be resurrected in the readers mind when they get read for eternity (unknown amount of future time).
If there is life after death, then, there is another environment. So the question is ‘where do we end up if there is afterlife?’.
The chances that there is another environment are high, from what I’ve seen in this environment there is a lot of demand for life.
Life is too special to make it exclusive to this environment, once.
However I can’t prove this, it just ‘seems’ unlikely that it’s a one-off.
EDIT:
It’s fantasy but it’s good fantasy. Will the fantasies continue? In my opinion, they ought do.
Sometimes I’ve thought that, but then it occurred to me that life isn’t exclusive to me. Where me is a spatiotemporally bounded organism. Maybe the pesky thought had come from thinking of me as a separate entity that at some stage took ownership of the body?
So, no, it happens to every human. Yes, your unique point of view only happened to you. But the uniqueness of your point of view ought to be less paradoxical?
It’s probable, if the life is pleasurable, he/she would want more.
If a max pleasure life can be given, should it be?
Then there’s the topic of fair life cost, because energy/effort must be expended to give one the pleasurable life.
A pleasurable life shouldn’t be given, but what should be given is a opportunity to earn that pleasure, in the fairest possible challenge, with all necessary costs, paid for.
I guess, if a fair start can be given, should it be? I desire this.
No one has ever seen brain functions work without the brain itself.
To what exactly is the idea of life after death a fantasy or an underlying approach for understanding the nature of continuites of the existence of life forms, including human beings?
Dying doesn’t tell us anything which can answer the question satisfactorily BUT there are things which can point us to “most likely” answers.
Even so, we each approach that door alone and will either find out there is, or cease to be forever.
If the answer is we find out there is, then I for one would at least like to be somewhat prepared…
Some say that atoms of physical body never die, even after death of the physical body. If atoms never die, then could they be any use for possible survival after death of body?
I have been thinking about that–how to prepare–but nothing really comes to me. May I ask how you/we can prepare for it?
I do so by studying the subject of NDE and the reports from people who have had such experiences.
I read Moody’s book years ago. Life After Life, I think.
And I’ve studied the neuroscience of OBEs a little bit. They make most sense to me as a natural phenomenon–the mind displacing its point of view.
But the NDEs are interesting. My problem is that I don’t know the people who are reporting them. If an old and trusted friend told me such a story, I’d view it differently.
Anyway, how do you prepare? I mean, what do you think you’ll do differently as you approach death?
“Atoms never die” because atoms are not living things.
Sure. But why do the agents or entities made of atoms live?
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I read Moody’s book years ago. Life After Life, I think.
And I’ve studied the neuroscience of OBEs a little bit. They make most sense to me as a natural phenomenon–the mind displacing its point of view.
But the NDEs are interesting. My problem is that I don’t know the people who are reporting them. If an old and trusted friend told me such a story, I’d view it differently.
Whereas my approach was different. I had a couple of OOBEs and from that experience, then examined what people reported about their NDEs and Astral Travels et al…
Anyway, how do you prepare? I mean, what do you think you’ll do differently as you approach death?
Nothing different than what I have been doing since those early days. Demystifying the process is really what has been done re preparation.
When finally death comes, the transition will be smooth…smoother than if I had not thought seriously about it (as an inevitable occurrence) or had decided that it meant the end of my existence.
And just to be clear, I have thought about death like that as well, and accept the idea that when I die, that could be the end of my existence…but the evidence against that being the case, means that I won’t be surprised if it isn’t…
Would you mind describing your OOBE experiences?
Here’s what happened to me: About five years ago, I woke up one night and was frozen in place, in my bed.
My first thought was fear. What if someone broke into the house and I couldn’t protect the family? Well, I thought, the dogs will probably wake me when they bark at the intruder. Still, can I recover quickly enough to get to the pistol?
Eventually I was released from that condition and all was normal.
Over the next few months, it happened maybe four or five more times. I woke up frozen in my bed.
Then one day, while awake, I thought, Wait a minute. My eyes must be closed when that happens.
It was a startling thought, but I investigated. During the frozen states, I studied my bedroom and saw that a couple of items were in the wrong place. There was a nightlight in a corner which shouldn’t have been there. I saw other things, small things that were wrong or even impossible. (Eventually, even stranger things.)
So I concluded that it was an hallucination. Which meant that my mind had a model of my bedroom in it—a model good enough to fool me, at least in the dumbed-down executive state I was in at the time.
I started reading popular neuroscience. Now I am somewhat confident that I understand what happened to me. Not certain. Just confident that it fits with the neuroscience.
But I’ve never had an OOBE
I’m suspecting oblivion, but if not, I’m pretty sure I’ll be startled no matter what.
But being startled is often one of my favorite things.
[quote=“BestGuessYet, post:76, topic:415”]
Would you mind describing your OOBE experiences?
FIrst up - thank you for this reply. It is not often people talk so openly about such things (at least in my experience).
Presently I am not yet considered a trustworthy human by the framework of the particular platform this message board operates off of so I will just answer with outlines rather than full blown event descriptions (which include events leading into those particular events) until such time as I am granted the ability to create my own thread re the subject matter.
Here’s what happened to me: About five years ago, I woke up one night and was frozen in place, in my bed.
Yes - As I understand that now, it is the preliminary aspect of what can then become an OOBE
My first thought was fear. What if someone broke into the house and I couldn’t protect the family? Well, I thought, the dogs will probably wake me when they bark at the intruder. Still, can I recover quickly enough to get to the pistol?
Yes - one is even perhaps in a state where one is more aware of one’s thoughts than is usual…for me I translated it differently - as if a presence had forced itself down upon my body. I did not realise at the time I was not actually awake.
It felt “evil” as if I was under attack by a demonic entity and unable to do anything about it…however, not only were those thoughts coming from (built by) my upbringing in a Christian Culture which was well established but the paralysis was instantaneously ended when I called on the name of “Christ” so that reenforced my belief that it was a demonic attack…an interesting side-bar…
Eventually I was released from that condition and all was normal.
Yes - that is what I am talking about. The release eventually naturally happens.
Over the next few months, it happened maybe four or five more times. I woke up frozen in my bed.
Then one day, while awake, I thought, Wait a minute. My eyes must be closed when that happens.
Yes. I don’t know when that realisation came to me over the period of time these “attacks” were taking place, but it was early in the game as my mindfulness was focus on trying to understand so I did not want to fudge any data in that respect by pretending otherwise.
It was a startling thought, but I investigated. During the frozen states, I studied my bedroom and saw that a couple of items were in the wrong place. There was a nightlight in a corner which shouldn’t have been there. I saw other things, small things that were wrong or even impossible. (Eventually, even stranger things.)
FOr me I did not get into the details to that degree. I accepted the overall that in these states it appeared to be a merging or superimposing of different/alternative states where both were able to be experienced as real.
One particular set of these experiences involved an entity - first heard then subsequently seen, then subsequently felt…
So I concluded that it was an hallucination.
I kept that possibility in mind as I continued to research and study et al - as I have been doing since my late teens…At this point I remain unconvinced about that hypothesis…
Which meant that my mind had a model of my bedroom in it—a model good enough to fool me, at least in the dumbed-down executive state I was in at the time.
THis is where things get blurry - what do we mean when we each say “the mind” and how does that input effect the output?
I started reading popular neuroscience. Now I am somewhat confident that I understand what happened to me. Not certain. Just confident that it fits with the neuroscience.
Well now - science has its scientists and religion has its priests…and what we have is our experiences…to make of what we will…
But I’ve never had an OOBE
So close and yet so far. I think the OOBE aspect shines a light on things priests and scientists cannot say much about other than give belief-based hypothesis…
I’m suspecting oblivion, but if not, I’m pretty sure I’ll be startled no matter what.
I think startled is unavoidable either way. There are stories of those who were caught off guard and require help being integrated. There is also the notion that we have a hand in how we will each experience the next level of this ongoing game and the results are instantaneous and not all realise that they create the experience they simultaneously have and for some, that = an horrific time of it…so there are things to consider re “preparation”
But being startled is often one of my favorite things.
So, are you always startled when you have the Sleep Paralysis experiences?
If not atoms, what else can living / physical things be made of?
I agree, humans are made of atoms. But atoms are not alive. So what makes human alive?
I’m the guy who says inappropriate stuff and a week later is still wondering why everyone cringed.
Yes. My mind put me inside its copy of my bedroom. In an OOBE it might shift my perspective… and so patients in distress might find themselves viewing the operating room (hallucination?) from above. They say that in crises, like a pending car crash, the person might switch and see it from outside the car.
But I’ve heard that they’ve done tests—placing objects on top of cabinets in ORs–and the floaters do not report seeing them. That would argue for the OR being the mind’s reconstruction.
The neuroscientists (see: Incognito, by Eagleman) claim we are experiencing hallucination all the time. We don’t see the world, but rather our mind’s reconstruction of it–hopefully adjusted by new sensory info as we go. I have seen evidence in my own life which seems to support that view.
>> Yes - one is even perhaps in a state where one is more aware of one’s thoughts than is usual…
I felt I was completely awake. Only later did I come to realize that I was not fully online during those events. So it was easier to fool me.
>> for me I translated it differently - as if a presence had forced itself down upon my body. I did not realise at the time I was not actually awake. It felt “evil” as if I was under attack by a demonic entity and unable to do anything about it…
That happens. It happened to me once as a teenager. A heavy-booted man walked into the house as I slept and loomed over me. I’ve heard this is a common experience, across cultures.
Some scientists explain it as threat being our most intense emotional place.
Others explain it with demons. As you say, who knows.
>> which was well established but the paralysis was instantaneously ended when I called on the name of “Christ” so that reenforced my belief that it was a demonic attack…
I have a couple of little tricks to wake myself. They don’t always work. I touch my tongue to my lips, for example.
>> Yes - that is what I am talking about. The release eventually naturally happens.
I’m pretty sure it’s part of the sleep cycles. We move through the cycle and wake. My events only happen in the first hour of sleep. Always. Xanax aggravated them, so I gave it up as a sleep aid.
>> FOr me I did not get into the details to that degree. I accepted the overall that in these states it appeared to be a merging or superimposing of different/alternative states where both were able to be experienced as real.
Yeah, I heard later that examining the dreams changes them. I wish someone had told me. I’m a curious guy, so I naturally investigated. But now I think that sleep should be left alone, ignored as much as possible. It’s like walking. If you analyze the mechanics too much, you might start stumbling.
>> THis is where things get blurry - what do we mean when we each say “the mind” and how does that input effect the output?
When I fight the dream, it can turn nastier. If you go to sleep angry, the dream seems to pick up on that. Input matters. I have learned to relax, act bored, and wait for it to pass. That seems to work pretty well for me.
>> So close and yet so far. I think the OOBE aspect shines a light on things priests and scientists cannot say much about other than give belief-based hypothesis…
Yeah, I don’t have a fixed belief about these things. I just study what I can, watch what happens, and remain curious. I don’t seem to be a person who needs final answers.
>> There is also the notion that we have a hand in how we will each experience the next level of this ongoing game and the results are instantaneous and not all realise that they create the experience they simultaneously have and for some, that = an horrific time of it…
There are many notions and many stories. Who can sort them?
>> So, are you always startled when you have the Sleep Paralysis experiences?
No. I am trying to out-bore them. It goes against my nature–to look away–but if I want to reduce them and their effect, I stop paying attention.