The Problem of Happiness

[questioner]

@Scorpion

Evolution is a theory, not a fact.

You are using the word “theory” here in its common usage – which means a hunch or a guess – and it’s incorrect to do so when speaking about scientific knowledge. A scientific theory is not a hunch or a guess, but substantiated knowledge supported by the evidence of hundreds, even thousands of experiments.

Would you say that Cell Theory is “just a theory?”
Would you say that the Theory of Gravity is “just a theory?”

Likewise, the Theory of Evolution is not “just a theory” but a set of substantiated facts – it is a fact that life changes over time. It is much more of a substantiated fact that the human capacity for happiness exists because it evolved as an evolutionary advantage, rather than to conclude that it appeared through some kind of supernatural intervention.

@Scorpion

Science is a fundamental logical error, affirming the consequent.

Are you honestly saying all science is invalid?

@Scorpion

I’m not ignoring scientific theories, but I am saying they’re not truths.

No, they are substantiated knowledge.

@Scorpion

Plus would you trust your computer if it were a product of mindless, unguided processes?

Talk about “affirming the consequent” - to conclude that if something is reliable it must have been designed - as if being designed is the only way something could be made functional. Of course, this is a fallacy.

Also - another fallacy - that computers and biological organisms result from the same process. Variation in organisms arise since they reproduce with variation - computers do not.

[MoK]

@Scorpion

You mean the 6 or so billion theists in the world have the wrong end of the stick?

Furthermore, Newton was a devout Christian, many Nobel laureates are theists, but Einstein wasn’t. There’s St. Anselm’s argument from “that than which nothing greater can be conceived”, which Godel polished into a solid argument that has been computer-verified.

We are talking about your argument here. Feel free to open another thread for other people’s arguments, and I would be happy to join.

[Scorpion]

@questioner

You are using the word “theory” here in its common usage – which means a hunch or a guess – and it’s incorrect to do so when speaking about scientific knowledge. A scientific theory is not a hunch or a guess, but substantiated knowledge supported by the evidence of hundreds, even thousands of experiments.

Would you say that Cell Theory is “just a theory?”
Would you say that the Theory of Gravity is “just a theory?”

Likewise, the Theory of Evolution is not “just a theory” but a set of substantiated facts – it is a fact that life changes over time. It is much more of a substantiated fact that the human capacity for happiness exists because it evolved as an evolutionary advantage, rather than to conclude that it appeared through some kind of supernatural intervention.

Yes, the theory of evolution is the best biological theory on life out there, but best \ne truth. I’m not saying this just for the heck of it. It’s well known that the problem with science is none of its theories can be said to be truths. Hence the requirement for arguments like the no miracles argument. Scientific theories are not closed to revision or disposal, which is where it differs from truth.

I’m not proposing supernatural intervention because I feel like it. It’s a logical consequence of the reality of happiness in the world. I simply don’t see how happiness can go with humans (homo homini lupus) and evolution (Creation is a nightmare spectacular, played out on a planet that has been for the past 100 million years soaked in the blood of its creatures).

@questioner

Are you honestly saying all science is invalid?

Yes, it’s the affirming the consequent fallacy. As a philosopher you should be in agreement.

@MoK You didn’t answer my question. Are you saying the 6 or so billion (and growing) theists in the world are wrong?

“And do you think that unto such as you, a maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew, God gave a secret, and denied it me? Well, well — what matters it? Believe that, too.” ~ Omar Khayyam (Rubaiyat)

[MoK]

@Scorpion

You didn’t answer my question. Are you saying the 6 or so billion (and growing) theists in the world are wrong?

I am afraid to say that this is not an argument.

[Scorpion]

1. If atheism is true than the 6 or so billion theists in the world are wrong
2. The 6 or so billion theists cannot be wrong
3. Atheism is false \equiv Theism is true (1, 2 MT)

[questioner]

@Scorpion

It’s well known that the problem with science is none of its theories can be said to be truths. Hence the requirement for arguments like the no miracles argument. Scientific theories are not closed to revision or disposal, which is where it differs from truth.

Why do you demand truth, and is that a reasonable demand?

@Scorpion

It’s a logical consequence of the reality of happiness in the world.

No it is not, in any way shape or form.

@Scorpion

I simply don’t see how happiness can go with humans (homo homini lupus) and evolution (Creation is a nightmare spectacular, played out on a planet that has been for the past 100 million years soaked in the blood of its creatures).

Then you do not understand the human condition.

@Scorpion

it’s the affirming the consequent fallacy. As a philosopher you should be in agreement.

Sorry, you are affirming the consequent when you insist upon a conclusion that does not fit the evidence.

[Scorpion]

@questioner

Why do you demand truth, and is that a reasonable demand?

Nescio.

@questioner

No it is not, in any way shape or form

Empty words.

@questioner

Then you do not understand the human condition.

Empty term, “understanding”.

@questioner

Sorry, you are affirming the consequent when you insist upon a conclusion that does not fit the evidence.

A flat assertion.

[Scorpion]

A short summary of The Evolution of Happiness (David M. Buss)

1. There’s a mismatch between our brains and the environment. We work best in small groups/communities in a wilderness environment. The modern world is a vastly different environment.
2. We have evolved mechanisms in emotions. Anger has strategic value, jealousy discourages infidelity, depression marks social defeat, anxiety and fear can become maladaptive (phobias, chronic anxiety). However these emotions operate at a level that may not be apparent in all situations. The hedonic treadmill problem characterizes the absence of long-term happiness.
3. Evolution is competitive. Gains mean losses.

This is what evolution makes of happiness.

[Scorpion]

What we have above is some kind of theory - evolution - and the place of happiness within it.

First issue: Evolution is a theory. It’s upgraded from a hypothesis after the discovery of many transitional fossils, genetic studies and so on. The level of confirmation Darwin’s idea has is substantial.

However, there are Mathematical challenges to Darwin. I’m not pushing creationism/theism but I fear biologists will have to address the issues raised in this video. It doesn’t help that there’s accuracy issues and large margins of error (?)

Second issue: Has evolution made anyone happy?

Third issue: The overused but true statistic that people with God in their lives are happier than those without.

Hence, I have good reason to say that (God, happiness) are a positive/consonant dyad and (evolution, happiness) is a neutral/negative/dissonant dyad.

[Scorpion]

Green: Happy
Yellow: So-so
Red: Sad

I present a simplified map of global happiness. I think the data is early 2020s (I don’t know how accurate these happiness statistics are)

Salient points (simplified)

1. North America is religious (Happy)
2. South America is religious (Happy)
3. Europe is not religious (Happy)
4. Africa is religious (Unhappy)
5. India is religious (Unhappy)
6. The Arabian peninsula is religious (Happy)
7. Asia is not religious (So-so)
8. Australia is also religious (Happy)

Of the 7 religious regions 6 are happy and 1 is unhappy
Asia is non-religious and doing only moderately well

[Scorpion]

Atheist: I’m very grateful for the life I have. I have a loving family, good friends, no major health issues.
Theist: Exactly!

[Scorpion]

@Scorpion

It’s quite clear that the biggest gun in the theist’s arsenal is God is beyond logic i.e. he’s omnipotent. Being so he can be good and bad at the same time, create a rock he can’t lift and lift it, can see his own future and still be free.

1. I have demonstrated, to some degree, that (God, happiness) is a strongly consonant dyad
2. God is beyond logic and so there’s no dissonance in the dyad (God, happiness)

[Scorpion]

[Ecurb]

@Scorpion

The overused but true statistic that people with God in their lives are happier than those without.

Is it true? How is happiness measured? Here in the U.S. evangelical Christians are required by custom to say, “I’m so much happier now that I’ve been saved.” But are they really?

Can happiness be measured?

[Scorpion]

@Ecurb

Is it true? How is happiness measured? Here in the U.S. evangelical Christians are required by custom to say, “I’m so much happier now that I’ve been saved.” But are they really?

Can happiness be measured?

-2, -1, 0, +1, +2

The commonly used method is self-reporting. A kind of scale, some with emojis, is constructed and a person is asked to tick off the emoji that matches his hedonic status.

Other kinds of statistic like disease statistics, maternal and childhood mortality, crime rates, suicide rates can also be used to make the measurement more objective.

[Ecurb]

I don’t trust the methods, for the reason mentioned and other reasons. Nonetheless, I think it likely that religious membership enhances happiness. But that might be due to church community and relationships – not to religion itself. Perhaps when compared to those who belong to secular social groups the difference would disappear.

Of course isolated nihilists might tend to be unhappy.

[Scorpion]

That’s a fair point but when probed religious people tend to speak of how their belief in (say) Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is their salvation is the reason why they are the way they are. A community is not going to save you like Jesus Christ. Imagine a community of nihilists or the mafia for example.

[Ecurb]

@Scorpion

A community is not going to save you like Jesus Christ

Perhaps not. But the “theological virtue” of “hope” is meaningless without doubt. One doesn’t say, “If I drop a heavy object, I hope it will fall to the ground.” Instead, one says, “It will fall.”

Narrow is the path to salvation, and if one “hopes” to attain it, one also “fears” the alternative.

In addition, of course, believing things because the belief makes you happy (instead of because reason persuades you to) is a form of intellectual cowardice.

[Scorpion]

@Ecurb

Perhaps not. But the “theological virtue” of “hope” is meaningless without doubt. One doesn’t say, “If I drop a heavy object, I hope it will fall to the ground.” Instead, one says, “It will fall.”

Narrow is the path to salvation, and if one “hopes” to attain it, one also “fears” the alternative.

In addition, of course, believing things because the belief makes you happy (instead of because reason persuades you to) is a form of intellectual cowardice.

Generic failures in arguments for the nonexistence of God

I hope you find the time to go through some of the conversations I’ve had with other members. You don’t have to.

[Scorpion]

Gemini AI

Large-scale demographic and psychological studies consistently find a positive correlation between religiosity/spirituality and higher levels of subjective well-being, life satisfaction, and happiness.

However, social scientists note that this relationship is nuanced:

• Social Connection & Community: Much of the “happiness gap” is attributed to the strong social support networks, regular community interaction, and sense of belonging that active religious participation provides.
• Cultural Norms: Research indicates that religious individuals report higher happiness primarily in societies or environments where religion is a strong cultural norm (Stavrova et al., 2013). In highly secular societies, the happiness gap between religious and nonreligious individuals tends to shrink or disappear.
• Strength of Conviction: Studies comparing non-religious individuals with strong non-religious convictions (e.g., confident atheists) to committed believers show that both groups often report high life satisfaction, whereas individuals who are uncertain or non-practicing report lower well-being (Villani et al., 2019).

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Key Studies

A foundational cross-national study published in Social Science Research examined data from dozens of countries to investigate why religious people report higher life satisfaction, demonstrating how societal expectations shape this dynamic (Stavrova et al., 2013):

Stavrova, O., Fetchenhauer, D., & Schlösser, T. (2013). Why are religious people happy? The effect of the social norm of religiosity across countries. Social Science Research, 42(1), 90–105. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ssresearch.2012.07.002

Another study published in Frontiers in Psychology evaluated how different aspects of spirituality and religious identity impact subjective well-being across varying levels of religious commitment (Villani et al., 2019):

Villani, D., Sorgente, A., Iannello, P., & Antonietti, A. (2019). The Role of Spirituality and Religiosity in Subjective Well-Being of Individuals With Different Religious Status. Frontiers in Psychology, 10. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.01525

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References

Stavrova, O., Fetchenhauer, D., & Schlösser, T. (2013). Why are religious people happy? The effect of the social norm of religiosity across countries. Social Science Research, 42(1), 90–105. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ssresearch.2012.07.002
Cited by: 403

Villani, D., Sorgente, A., Iannello, P., & Antonietti, A. (2019). The Role of Spirituality and Religiosity in Subjective Well-Being of Individuals With Different Religious Status. Frontiers in Psychology, 10. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.01525
Cited by: 650

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The provisos vis-a-vis the happiness gap seem to completely ignore theology, existentialism, absurdism, nihilism, sociology, etc.

Religion: Daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.