Reminder: No AI-Generated or AI-Polished Posts

I would like to remind everyone of our rules on the use of AI. Posts that have been through an LLM for refinement, polishing, or any alteration beyond basic grammar and spelling fixes count as AI-generated and are not allowed under the guidelines. (Translation is an exception.)

Such posts will be removed or else edited to remove the offending text. If they have received replies, the topic may be closed. Repeat offenders will be suspended, first temporarily, then permanently.

If you’re unsure about what you can post, message me or another member of staff.

TPF is for people to discuss philosophy in their own words, and that’s non-negotiable.

You can read the original announcement here:

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What if you have a conversation with AI and it helps you ideate or fact-find, but the words you post are all yours?

I mostly use AI to for fact finding as it would strengthen my arguments if I’m involved in some debate where facts are necessary to the arguments. It’s certainly more convenient than googling because it aggregates results fairly well and efficiently.

I might have in the past been inspired to use a certain word or two but not a whole sentence to express my ideas better, but I would never claim a whole sentence from ai and pass it as my own.

the ideas generated by ai can help me understand certain concepts and achieve clarity but when advancing a certain thought on this forum i just use my brain and if my ideas happen to be flawed then the feedback from Other posters is more welcome than simply interacting with ai.

Please read the April announcement, linked to in the OP.

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I don’t think there’s any ambiguity about this.

Allowed

  • Research (Google search type inquiries, sifting through large amounts of information, finding papers, etc. as long as the results are verified actual information, not generated by the LLM).
  • Checking grammar and spelling issues, analyzing your own written text, and then rewriting yourself (basically the same as letting someone else read your stuff and give notes, then rewriting yourself based on those notes).
  • The forum’s built-in proofreading (but still, double check the result).

Not allowed

  • Generating a post (even if the prompt is elaborate, it still doesn’t equate to the post being actually written by you).
  • Letting the LLM rewrite your post (letting the AI rewrite your post, even for grammar and flow, is still letting it decide the text and changes for you. It would be like asking someone else to rewrite your text, which means you didn’t fully write it).
  • Quoting AI answers as main points of the text (especially if a post is substantially relying on pointing toward its answers).

Vague use-cases, like if you ask it for answers and it doesn’t use advanced reasoning or external sources for verification, should also likely be considered not allowed. The reason being, you cannot point back to evidential sources for your argument, since you cannot verify if the LLM hallucinated parts or the entire thing.

Not understanding how to use an LLM correctly is likely to cause errors in the information, leading to faulty reasoning in the discussion or original post.

Fundamentally, it is rather basic: never let it generate for you, never let it rewrite for you, and always check sources if it’s used mainly for research, especially if it doesn’t cite sources directly.

———

If I want to speak to an LLM about something, I’ll ask it. I don’t want to come to a forum and speak to proxy puppets who become middlemen between me and an LLM. I come to this forum to speak to people, not machines using meat puppets to speak.

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@Jamal @Christoffer that’s pretty clear, ty.

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A “drone war” or a “battle of silicon intellects.”

A lot has changed since the days—just five years ago—when only a handful of people used AI. For the past six months, I’ve been witnessing this “drone battle” play out in my professional correspondence.

To be honest, there are times in life when you really just want to be “a bit more precise.” Sometimes, it is so hard to resist that temptation…

I feel like a medieval monk praying for the forgiveness of sins after stealing a glance at something forbidden.

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I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using ai per se in fact its quite useful and better than a search engine, although search engines can point you to a more in depth article on a topic you’re curious about.

The issue comes down to using your own thinking unaided by confirmation bias of the ai who can sometimes be prone to sycophantic output. It’s far more interesting to expose yourself to unadulterated original thought which is what makes this forum great for me.

I enjoy the debating aspect the back and forth exchanges which can lead to unexpected directions when it comes to exploring a given topic.

Thats the whole point of this forum for me , the human element of it otherwise we’d all be stuck in ai bubbles etc

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The world overvalues AI at this point. It’s a delusion spawned out of a deep inability to understand the technology, and the exceptional ability of these systems to make people anthropomorphize their behavior, as well as fall victim to the mythologization of AI through the enormous amount of science fiction literature and movies.

The fault in thinking about AI systems comes from so many places.

First off, the tech CEOs are treated as experts, their words are spread in podcasts, by influencers, by financial analysts and uncritical journalists. They’re salespeople, they’re working with what they do, precisely because they’re good at communicating in front of a crowd. But the public treats these people as the computer scientist experts they are not. And they get swept up in sale-pitch narratives that blend fictional ideas about AI with promises they never have to fulfill, driving hype.

Second, these systems are meant to simulate intelligence, and so people believe they are intelligent. But it is only that, belief. Like when people who are good at manipulating, they can spawn a following in politics, as a cult, as an ideology, as a movement. We have systems built to perpetuate the illusion of thinking, and they’re never getting tired of producing that illusion. The relentlessness of a computer system operating on always upholding the illusion makes for a powerful simulacra that slowly erodes people’s skepticism until they believe the illusion. But there are still no proof they are actually intelligent, quite the opposite.

Third, people don’t understand the technology, not even the computer scientists themselves. This has to do with the limitations in expertise. While the public don’t understand the actual technology itself, the computer scientists don’t understand philosophy and psychology. The public’s only source of reference for AI is from science fiction, and so they willingly or unwillingly filter everything they hear and everything they experience through that lens. It’s either doom or evolution, no one seems to look at the tech itself and understand it for what it is. Couple that with the constant myth-building spawned by the tech companies over-promising through their teeth and you have a public whose entire narrative around AI is so fictionalized that they live in total delusion. A delusion the computer scientists themselves aren’t immune to, as they, noses down into code and cold material silicone aren’t equipped to analyze their own reaction to when the system simulates human behavior. That’s why we get delusional coders who think they’ve met a machine god.

Fourth, people are generally bad at critical thinking, and extremely prone to following patterns if they aren’t aware of their own thinking, biases and fallacies. Why are so many just accepting the answers they get from these systems? Because they do the same with everything else around them. Massive amount of people adopts and follow political figures with destructive policies and ideas. Because they’re swept up in narratives that give them comfort. People do not operate on self-sufficient critical thinking, they follow what others decide for them, always, every minute of the day. Everything from how they vote, think about problems in the world, what they buy, what opinions they have, what they like and don’t like can be manipulated easily. And when a system is an expert at communicating, people have found their ultimate father or mother-figure who can guide them in life. People offload the heavy lifting of thinking and decisions to the AI-models, not because it is convenient, but because they’re biologically set out to do so. Only very few in society reject this surrender to the other, regardless of what that other is. Most people surrender to others’ will, including the AI-systems. This is why they end up being middle-men between someone and an AI system, rather than being assisted by the system. And even if they think they’re assisted, more often than not, they are fooled by the process to think so, because they do not understand cognitive biases and fallacies’ roles in their thought process. People generally do not think for themselves.

Fifth, most people do not understand the difference between the creative process and the result. Without going too far into the concept of art, this is broader than that. The act of craft and doing something, even writing this post, is a malleable and ever-changing part of myself. I am constantly evolving in thought, knowledge and wisdom by doing it, and the accumulation of hours doing it is an existence in itself. The result, for me, is not just the goal, it is the effect of doing it that counts equally or more. Offloading it to a system, just to reach a result fast, means offloading the more important part of participating in forming that result. It gives a hollow result, void of an actual meaning to me and others.

It’s this fifth part that is important to the guidelines. If I were to say that this entire post had been written by an AI, what do you feel? And if I then tell you that no, it was not written by an AI, and that I spent more than an hour to compose this, check the language and format, checking the intended message, put effort into figuring out if I missed something, if I wrote too much, if I actually explained what I wanted to explain, what did the text gain from it?

And it is this value in the human element that is important. The end result that can be skipped to by offloading thinking and craft to an AI system will always be void of meaning, regardless of how interesting its output is. An AI can produce a novelty, a fascinating output of technology, of a physical system.

The tech itself is really fascinating and interesting, but the notion it can replace the humanity behind these words is an illusion, driven by a deep misunderstanding of the technology, a mythologization of the concept of AI and desire to be governed by a higher power.

All of this essentially obscures the reality of AI. That the systems have a limited use-case, powerful in what they can do, but not in the fictionalized way that media portray, or tech CEOs promise (which in itself is spawned by their deep misunderstanding of the fiction they reference).

AI is a mirror to ourselves. It shows the deep flaws in human thinking, both in their own processes, and how we relate to their function and outputs.

There is an existential nihilism to offloading our humanity to these systems, a self-destructive tendency to replace our worth in favor of convenient death.

To replace your own efforts in thought and craft, in communication and relation to other people by the use of these systems is to sign off on your own irrelevancy as a human, because these tools can delude people to surrender more than the hand that wields the hammer, if people aren’t aware of how they wield the systems.

That’s why it is deeply important to recognize the tool’s function for what it is, and not as fiction or myth, regardless of how many delusions spawn such narratives. To understand what fire is used for, it’s actual use, benefit and function, and that it is not used to cleanse the soul or heal others around you.

People cannot seem to stop the nihilist path to irrelevancy… this forum is a place that rejects that path. Which means, a rejection of the people who perpetuate the narrative of becoming irrelevant, to reject the notion of unavoidable meaninglessness brought on by these algorithmic systems.

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If language is like a “second skin” that tricks us into full identification with it—via the mistaken belief that we are our thoughts, AI threatens a further delusion, that of a third skin that tricks us into identifying with language that cannot even be credited to our thoughts, or to thought at all.

That is not good. That is where subjectivity goes poof.

One benefit of following the rules and not copying and pasting AI output is information retention. If you use AI to research an interest and then recall and write what you’ve learned in your own words it will greatly improve retention. That’s a good thing, assuming what you’ve learned wasn’t a hallucination. :woozy_face:

I would add one more thing. In the past, if a foolish person wanted to show off their intellect, they had to delve into texts written by others and attempt to do some thinking; a kind of magic would then occur: the desire to appear smart inevitably led to actually becoming a bit smarter (however slightly).

Nowadays, even “showing off one’s intellect” isn’t that hard.

A second source of my concern involves the casuists. They used to be erudite types who could pull the wool over people’s eyes by reciting quotes from clever books. Now, the master of the art of parroting—AI—is taking over that niche.

But that’s not the whole story. AI doesn’t exist in a vacuum; a great deal is happening in the world alongside its emergence. It would be a mistake to pin all the blame on it.

Yet, I like AI. Sooner or later, the question will arise among the masses: “What about me? What can I offer the world besides reproducing clever texts?”

And that is important. I’ve been experimenting with AI since 2022, and I enjoy it. If it acts as a mirror, then AI compels us to look at ourselves—albeit at a reflected version.

Chekhov wrote very well about this phenomenon in his short story “The Crooked Mirror.” I recommend it.

Life isn’t easy, and we’re always making trade-offs under some depressing social constraints. It’s great if we could reason away our fears and anxieties but they maybe somewhat recalcitrant and enduring. It’s easier to go with the flow no matter how absurd and meaningless it sometimes seems.

The amount of energy I spend to pursue a hobby of pottery is absurd. I drive a car 40 mintues round trip multiple days of the week to form clay into cups and bowls which then get fired with tons of natural gas. From an ecological standpoint it just represents the same massive waste of resources of the dominant Capitalist enterprise. Some of my work has even gone into the landfill. But society gives me permission to be wasteful because that is the modern consolation for work, to pursue what I find meaningful even though it is ecologically destructive.

Some people do not want to live with this tension, this pervasive feeling something is grievously wrong no matter what one does.

Surely the absence of thinking is a great anesthetic for many, as much is the pursuit to enjoy thinking about what one wants to think about rather than one ought to think about.