"Placement" Problems -- A Naturalist Responds

There’s a familiar issue that underlies many of the most interesting discussions on TPF. Many forum members are committed to a broadly naturalistic view of existence. This view (which I don’t share, but that’s not important right now) holds that something like physicalism, or at any rate “what science studies,” is fundamentally what there is. We may of course find other discourses, other ways of describing the “life-size” phenomena that we encounter – Sellars’ “manifest image” – but the naturalistic view would insist that these other ways must be derived in some sense from a scientific picture, or at the very least be reducible to such a picture.

The problem is that many of the things that philosophers (and a lot of other people) care most about don’t seem to be an easy fit for this view. Huw Price, whose paper “Naturalism Without Representationalism” I’m about to cite in some depth, offers this list: “meaning, value, mathematical truth, causation and physical modality, and various aspects of mentality.” Price notes, “The difficulties stem from the fact that in many interesting cases it is hard to see what natural facts we could be talking about.” And so, uneasily, we wonder if perhaps these seemingly significant terms don’t refer at all, or not in the ways we care about.

Price calls this a “placement problem” – how do we “locate topics of these kinds within a naturalistic framework? . . . We seem to be faced with a choice between forcing the topic concerned into a category which for one reason or another seems ill-shaped to contain it, or regarding it as at best second-rate – not a genuine area of fact or knowledge.”

Richard J. Bernstein, in Pragmatic Naturalism, connects this problem with the work of both McDowell and Nagel. He quotes McDowell:

[O]n a familiar modern understanding of nature, a contrast opens between saying how something is placed in the space of reasons – a logical space that is organized by justificatory relations between its inhabitants – and saying how something is placed in nature. . . The structure of the space of reasons stubbornly resists being appropriated within a naturalism that conceives nature as the realm of law. (Naturalism in Question, 91)

An example may help illustrate this, and one of the most familiar is that of rationality, which I think Price would include in “aspects of mentality.” On the one hand, we want to regard rationality as a natural phenomenon like any other, since after all we humans are natural creatures. So surely science ought to be able to explain rationality, just as it explains heat, or planetary motion. But on the other hand, the claims of rationality push against this very sort of explanation. If rationality can be given, for instance, an evolutionary explanation, what does that say about the key terms within rationality – terms like truth, consistency, warrant, logic, objectivity, et al.? Can these terms really characterize what rationality is and does – its authority to do it, so to speak – if at the same time they are purportedly now explainable in naturalistic terms? In Nagel’s formulation, reason seems to demand “the last word” here, rejecting deflation into a mere form of life or species-specific practice. To oversimplify, Nagel argues that we need the standard conception of rationality in order to make the scientific judgment that anything has been adequately explained.

But how could we defend that, while remaining naturalistic? Where do we place rationality in our naturalistic picture?

Price’s paper begins from this uncomfortable tension – not about rationality, which is my own example, but about the placement problem in general – and goes on to offer what he considers to be a third way, an alternative that does justice to both naturalism and our wish not to push a topic into a naturalistic form so that it’s no longer recognizable for what it is – “distorting the very phenomena that a naturalistic study is supposed to explain.” His paper is extremely well analyzed and argued, and I recommend it highly. But here I want to talk about just one aspect of Price’s case, a distinction he makes between a material view and a linguistic view of the “problem” topics in question.

The most intuitive way to look at the naturalism question would be to see it as a problem about items in the world – “object naturalism,” as Price calls it, making the connection with Sellars’ focus on the primary objects of the manifest and scientific images. He says, “The issue is thus how some thing, X, can be a natural thing – the sort of thing revealed by science (at least in principle).” So, for example, we’re familiar with values like courage, compassion, truthfulness, etc., and we ask ourselves, “How can such items be given a naturalistic explanation?” Or we might ask the same question about mathematical entities, or about my intention to open a door. But the question is formed as a question about X.

Brief interruption about neutral terms: It’s always hard to find a neutral term to describe something that’s allegedly “out in the world” or “mind-independent”. Any one we pick becomes immediately tendentious. If we talk about “things” or “entities”, we start to picture objects exclusively. If we say “events” or “processes,” we lose a sense of stable identity. “Properties” or “qualities” come with their own implied biases. My favorite term – because it’s the most neutral one I can think of – is “item”, so that’s the one I’ll use here. “Item” should be understood as potentially including absolutely anything that the speaker wishes to assign to an object-naturalist world. It carries no further commitments.

So, back to the placement problem. The other way to view this problem is that it’s linguistic in origin. It’s not about items in the world, it’s about what we say. Here is Price:

Roughly, we note that humans (ourselves or others) employ the term “X” in language, or the concept X in thought. . . . [So] we come to wonder how what these speakers are thereby talking or thinking about could be the kind of thing studied by science. (6)

It’s crucial to see that a linguistic interpretation of the problem does not begin by assuming that there must be a referent for the piece of linguistic behavior. It does not start with a question about X, but rather about the term “X”. So a possible answer to the question, “What are we talking about?” could be “Nothing.”

Price goes on:

In favour of the material conception, it might be argued that the placement problem for X is a problem about the thing X, not a problem about the term “X”. In other words, it is the problem as to how to locate X itself in the natural world, not the problem about how to locate the term “X”. (6-7)

But Price points out that certain philosophical approaches which begin with language instead would be automatically rendered “wrong” if the placement problem were, by stipulation, about the material conception. He does not find that plausible. Non-cognitivism is the example he gives – and which I alluded to just now – and it’s a good one. If talk of “Xs” has no objective referent, then there can’t be a material problem at all; we’re simply speaking vacuously, or perhaps emotively or poetically. But those who begin with the material conception have to rule that out; they have to say that linguistic analysis gets the cart before the horse, and misunderstands the problem by focusing on the term “X”. Now non-cognitivism may be false, but Price’s point is that we can’t just ban it from the discussion on the grounds that it misunderstands the focus of the placement problem. That focus is the very thing under debate.

Suppose one were truly neutral on the topic of where the placement problem begins. Such a person would hear humans talking about many things and experiences that may or may not have references in the world, and, if they do, may or may not be treated satisfactorily by science. True neutrality, remember, demands that science not be given ontological priority, a primacy of perspective in terms of objects. A perfectly good scientific account might analyze “meaning,” say, in terms that reduce it to something that doesn’t resemble our everyday “meaning” at all. But this need not be eliminative, any more than a scientific account of heat eliminates being scorched. Heat is not “really” about feeling a hot temperature; perhaps meaning is not “really” about something that events or words contain or display.

This is Price’s “subject naturalism,” which doesn’t deny the manifest image, but merely begins with a scientific picture of human nature rather than a scientific picture of the image or the object. (Bernstein traces this line of thought back to Dewey: “Dewey advocates a subject-naturalism in which philosophy’s starting point must lie in science’s disclosure about ourselves.”)

Price makes this important observation:

Object naturalism rests on substantial theoretical assumptions about what we humans do with language – roughly, the assumption that substantial ‛word - world’ semantic relations are a part of the best scientific account of our use of the relevant terms. (10)

In other words, to make the placement problem be about items, you have to assume or accept that semantic relations are real – that this is what language does – and these relations can be based in scientific understanding. You need a bridge of some sort between our use of language and a language-independent world, such that we get “a genuine shift of theoretical focus . . . to an issue about the nature of non-linguistic objects.”

In contrast, if the placement problem is linguistic, and if we don’t appeal to representationalist semantic relations (and that’s a big “if”), then we have what Price calls “a plurality of ways of talking.” He says, “The challenge is now simply to explain in naturalistic terms how creatures like us come to talk in these various ways.” This is subject naturalism, clearly, and for Price it is good enough. We can remain naturalists about human beings without committing ourselves to any dubious natural objects that require placement in the world.

The question is, is this a satisfactory response to the original formulation of the placement problem? At the start, Price stated it this way: “We seem to be faced with a choice between forcing the topic concerned into a category which for one reason or another seems ill-shaped to contain it, or regarding it as at best second-rate – not a genuine area of fact or knowledge.”

If the placement problem is really about how humans use language, aren’t we “forcing the topic” to go there? Yes, knowledge about linguistic behavior is “a genuine area of fact or knowledge,” but is it the right area in which to address the placement problem? Price doesn’t claim that this must be so. He’s defending naturalism as such; the farthest he will go is to say:

The availability of the subject naturalist alternative makes clear that the problems of object naturalism are not problems for naturalism per se – not a challenge to the view that, in some areas, philosophy properly defers to science. (21)

And I think this is true. The naturalist can certainly try to explain “what role the different language games play in our lives,” such that talk about values is explained differently than talk about electrons. But will this solution satisfy someone – naturalist or not – who wants a more comprehensive way to discriminate about putative objects/items in the world, one in which philosophy doesn’t necessarily “properly defer to science”? Isn’t it possible that some “problem” words refer after all? Is it science that will tell us which ones? I think a naturalist has to reply, Yes, we must defer to science. And that has an uncomfortable aura of circularity.

Another way of putting this is to ask what the difference is between Price’s subject naturalism and non-cognitivism about all the problem items. Price says that non-cognitivism doesn’t have to be true, but is this disingenuous? This comes back to the question about whether the subject-naturalist account is or is not eliminative concerning the items involved. Is the analogy I drew with the scientific account of “what heat is” a good one for a subject-naturalist account of “what meaning is”? Heat as molecular motion may not eliminate my perspectival experience of being scorched, but it does eliminate, for instance, the existence of heat understood as “a natural element that constitutes one of the four bases of the world.” Science is clear that such an item does not exist. Is that closer to what a scientific account of meaning might declare? I don’t want to take more space here with discussions about reductionism and eliminativism, but I think we can see where the problems lie.

Clearly I have reservations about Price’s suggested solution to the placement problem. But I hope you’ll read his essay for its perspective on why the problem needs attention. And I don’t mind going into more of the details of his case against representationalism, which I’ve hardly touched on here, if there’s interest in doing that.

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Interesting topic, and lots of stuff to go through.

Some naturalists might point to the fact that the naturalistic picture is not fixed, it changes, and so does the meaning of ‘physical’, as well as the meaning of meaning, value, causation etc.

Excellent OP !

To me a certain kind of naturalism is still trapped in the seminary. Oh the handwringing piety ! As you’ve heard me say already, it is the power of technology in the lifeworld that summons forth a new “theology,” loosely based on The Matrix.

Fichte was troubled by this issue, like many in his generation. Newton’s laws were eternal. The physical world was a machine whose future was implicit in its present. What room then for praise or blame ? For puppets on strings they have not the wit to calculate ?

I suggest that we call them “explanations” because they allow us to control heat in ways that we care about. Prognosticators have long been with us, with miracle mongers to the left and right. What sets technology apart is its accurate prophecy and reliable miracle-working. This prophecy has “meaning” and “value” within the very “lifeworld” that a reductive naturalist would deny. That denial is incoherent, a performative contradiction. But who cares ? As long as someone reliable keeps the machines going…

Local unfamiliar patterns are “explained” via weaving them into global familiar patterns that we like to forget are brute facts. If the physicists give us a TOE that fits on a T-Shirt, this might be more obvious. The data of past are intensely compressed as a guide for the future. This is amazing ! And yet, IMV, it’s just a refinement of common sense.

Right. And it’s even weird that Nagel would have to say this. Such is our alienation beneath the now mysterious monolith of “science.” Yet the genius of science is its practical impiety. No sacred/fixed ways of doing things. I don’t have to take your word for it, nor you mine. Let’s check your idea in the “real” world which is of course the “lifeworld” where we are.

Thank you.

I understand what you mean. What Price calls “placement problems” are not new. Kierkegaard had his own version: How do I place myself in the world that the System (Hegelianism) constructs? And of course the problem of human freedom in a law-governed natural world goes back at least to Kant.

To me, one of interesting developments in naturalistic philosophy is the realization that physicalism or scientism may not do – that they may not be synonyms for “naturalism.” It’s a questioning of the role of laws. And here is where the “seminary” flavor comes in for me. Rational theology attempts to locate humans in a law-governed world too, only the laws are divine, not scientific. It can lead to equally intractable problems about freedom. Am I free to disobey God’s law? Am I free to disobey the “laws of physics”? The flavor of the problem is very similar. How do I “place” my ability to choose within a metaphysics that, if it is lawlike, seems to rule it out.

We can roughly divide people into those who like supernatural entities and those who don’t. I happen to be an “atheist” with great respect for religion. I lay that card on the table because I’m a critic of scientism from the left. The fetishization of physics looks like a sly deism to me. I myself found this “deism” very attractive once. The gloomy transcendence is a selling point. “It’s all just atoms and void, kid” is perversely romantic. Like Sartre puffing on a cigarette, up in the balcony with a god as cold as liquid nitrogen.

“Anthropocentrism” is the new sin, the naive foil, yet “human” reason is not bound to human biology. If those born blind can share the forum with the sighted, then humans can share the forum with creatures from far away with different sense organs. Voltaire’s early sci-fi anticipates Star Trek by centuries. Feuerbach, less humourously, presents God as the projection and idealization of biologically-unlimited “human” reason.

Tegmark is a charmer, but he’s a great example of what I can only call a mathematical mysticism, a Pythogorean ascetic’s theoretical orgy. I stress the power of technology in the lifeworld to try to explain the implied contempt for “the humanities” in this “mysticism.” There’s a lust for the inhuman, which itself is all too human.

Well, I didn’t follow most of that, but I can add one thing. “Naturalism” was, I believe, originally coined to distinguish itself from “supernaturalism,” as you point out. When I say that naturalism may be evolving into a view that is not the equivalent of physicalism or scientism, this doesn’t mean that supernaturalism is “coming back.” Rather, the idea is that some (not all) items that were previously forced into the category of “supernatural” can now be seen as in fact part of nature after all.

The boundaries of what is considered natural or physical keep shifting. !50 years ago we didn’t even know that fields existed, now they’ve occupied the vacuum left by atoms. It’s Hempel’s Dilemma. Recall that in the heyday of natural philosophy proper, objectivity and detachment from nature were assumed. That sense of complete separateness has been undermined by physics and also by the environmental sciences. So the ground keeps shifting, and on those unstable foundations naturalism keeps trying to put up a building.

Isn’t this only became the ‘space’ in ‘space of reasons’ us not an actual space - that the word ‘space’ here means something different to space inthe sense of location?

But naturalism always assures us that there is no reason (telos) in nature. Only natural causes which are not rational.

Right. And my approach toward meaning, inspired by Sellars and Derrida and others, includes an appreciation of its “materiality.” So I’m not a typical platonist when it comes to math.

The natural is basically whatever is lawlike and public. If every other person was telepathic, then we’d study the average range and accuracy of such telepathy.

I think we have a dualism where people have goals but “Nature” is cast as a mechanical substrate. As a Hegelian might put it, nature is the product of spirit. Within the normative lifeworld (spirit) , a “reduced” environment is “expelled” from lifeworld/spirit to function as its lifeless substrate. Because this is technologically powerful — within that same disavowed lifeworld — some philosophers talk as if “spirit” ( the space of reasons, the world of marriages and credit scores) is a mere fume, an awkward epiphenomenon, above what is “truly real.”

To me it looks like a sadomasochistic deism. The demiurge is absent, but the geonumerical shapes in his ashes remain sacred. In the name of this true and singular (un)living god, other gods are declared false. If it’s depressing to enter the game, the payoff is chewing up the hopes and dreams of others. I’d connect it to a broader phenomenon, in which this or that projected Ultimate is used to de-realize mundane life.

Meillassoux’s fear of correlationism is a fear of fideism. He tells us himself. Speculative realism, fetishizes “the great outdoors” and longs for something beyond that trail of the serpent mentioned by James.

the trail of the human serpent is thus over everything

That’s an interesting observation, but I think McDowell does mean “space” metaphorically in both cases. The “space of location” – what you’re calling an actual space – is not what “something being placed in nature” refers to, for him. He’s talking about a version of naturalism which emphasizes lawlike behavior and explanations. To “place” a phenomenon in that world is not necessarily to show how, physically, it can be generated, or serve as a cause for something else, etc. This is particularly true for the “problem” placements. It is rather to assign a role to that phenomenon in our structure of explanation: How, for instance, could the phenomenon of giving reasons, if it exists in the object-naturalist sense, explain why Jane did X for Bob? I don’t think a “location-space” story would fit the bill for McDowell, and I don’t read him as claiming that a “lawlike” naturalist would advance such a story, in contrast to the “metaphorical-space” story of the Kantian rationalist.

Well, that’s one of the problems of naturalism, isn’t it? Naturalism puts into question the idea that rationality really does what it claims to do, but like any scientific perspective, it conceives of (one of) its main jobs as providing reasons why things are as they are.

Very good. But to be fair, philosophers like Price, and perhaps McDowell, are hyper-aware of the problem, and want a better, more secure vantage point for their naturalism. Hence Price’s “subject naturalism.”

Why couldn’t un-lawlike phenomena be part of nature?

I think this discussion is missing something very important. This missing element leads to false dichotomies like this one:

This does not exhaust the possibilities. It might be that X is a term in a domain which, while materially grounded, itself has its own semantics, whose terms have no straightforward material basis.

To give an example which is hopefully uncontroversial. Suppose an alien archaeologist encountered a computer. It moves around an icon on the desktop and wonders: “what is the material basis for this icon?” After an exhaustive analysis of the components of the computer, it concludes, “there is no material basis whatsoever”. That is because, it is asking the wrong question. The computer is a material device which supports a logical domain whose terms have no particular material basis. And so the icon can only be understood in terms of the logical domain of the computer. While the existence of logical domain itself has a specific material foundation.

The question is, is this elucidation consistent with naturalism? You’re helping yourself to the idea of a logical domain, whereas object naturalism (which is the type of naturalism under discussion) would insist the alleged domain be explained in physical terms. Or, to put it as Price might, how do we place a logical domain within the cause-and-effect world that science reveals? Remember my original formulation of the problem: “the naturalistic view would insist that these other ways [of speaking, such as talk of a logical domain] must be derived in some sense from a scientific picture, or at the very least be reducible to such a picture.” I’m sure that’s what you have in mind by “grounded,” but it needs explaining how that would work.

You conclude by saying that “the existence of the logical domain itself has a specific material foundation.” Whether that is true, and how it can be true, is the challenge of naturalism. How would you respond, beyond merely asserting it?

BTW, I myself feel you’re on the right track, and that naturalism is vulnerable to this line of criticism, but if we’re going to take this line, should we concede the “specific material foundation” at all?

Well I think we “should” extend the concept of nature to include every single phenomenon. It is “all real” if we set aside a merely pragmatic use of “real” that it synonymous with “relevant to the average member of the tribe.”

But nature opposed to mere culture, as you indicate, is usually understood in terms of what is “governed” by laws that don’t care about what humans think or want.

This jumped out at me as a statement that seems to be ignoring the distinction between the idea of logic being embodied in, exemplified by and thus finding its genesis within, the experience of a world, and the very different idea that it could be explainable in physical terms.

The idea that nature “doesn’t care” seems to imply a somehow human aspect to it, as does it’s idea of “being governed by laws”. I prefer to think of nature as presenting us with observable regularities that we have played no part in generating, other than whatever is going on precognitively―an anterior “context” within which “we” do not yet exist, and where “we”, as neither existing nor not existing, are inseparable from the neither existing nor not existing world.

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Yes, that is what I’m trying to suggest with what I’m hoping is the straightforward example of a computer (far more straightforward than minds at least).

How a computer works physically is complex, but well understood. No one doubts that computers are material objects, and that their special causal powers are materially grounded. The genius of computers is that it implements a set of semantic laws - the rules of logical and memory manipulation by which programs are written - which have no relationship whatsoever to natural laws. They are defined by fiat, and so cannot be derived from natural laws. All the virtual “objects” one encounters on a computer - icons, web pages, monsters in a game - cannot be “placed” directly in the material world. Instead, they find place in the logical domain of the computer, in the defined-by-fiat semantics of data structures and opcodes. The bridge to the natural world is found not in the terms of these semantics, but that which allows these semantics to operate at all. The physical computer, made of silicon and copper traces, instantiating a man-made logical domain divorced from natural law.

Material world → logical domains → domain-specific terms

Price is encountering domain-specific terms and asking “how can these be placed in the material world?” They cannot. They can only be placed in their own logical domain. It is the foundation of the logical domains themselves, how it is they are able to exist at all, that can be placed in the material world. Not their terms, which might be fully divorced from the material world.

Does this make sense?

You might be misreading my stance. I am a naturalist, and I’m writing this as a support of naturalism, not an attack. It is a recognition of the power of natural law which is able to support domains that operate under their own laws entirely.

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I basically agree with you. I suppose I was trying to illustrate in passing the leap from animism to a sense of nature as the maximally trans-human. Even today not everyone makes this leap. And I’d even call it a rational myth, an enacted framing of the situation. Joe might believe that the sky has feelings, and rains on crops as a sign of being pleased with Joe. Can I prove that Joe is wrong ? Really I wouldn’t bother to try. For Joe the sky is like a person. For me the sky is inhuman. As you say, “uncaring” may suggest a cessation of caring. But I mean an apathy that is colder than the blood of any psychopath.

We may vary in our feeling toward speculative realism. I might be painted as a “lifeworld reactionary” who refuses to cede the priority of the lifeworld to something absolutely external. On the other hand, the only impossibility is logical impossibility, and I don’t see logic as frozen. So even my sense of the possible is mutable. The lifeworld itself is fundamentally ajar and threatened by “internal” revolution.

I experience the regularities you mention as a brute fact. If we can explain this little unfamiliar pattern in terms of a larger pattern to which we’ve grown numb, we often feel satisfied and enlightened. But the larger familiar pattern can be experienced in moments of wonder ( I hope you’ll agree) as an almost terrifying brute fact. Why this way and not that ? And yet this “why” tends to ask only for the weaving of the unfamiliar into the familiar. Hence the final inexplicability of the world, the “miracle” of the world.

Just to put this out there : when I read ( some of ) Brandom, it occurred to me that causality talk is “reducible” to inferential norms. In other words, one can plausibly put the forum at the center and understand causality as part of a larger web of us explaining ourselves to one another.

Yes. So if it’s just a matter of how we usually understand a controversial term like “nature,” then I think we can at least offer the possibility that it could be construed more broadly to include un-lawlike phenomena, including culture. This is at the heart of what I find interesting in some of the current discussions about naturalism – the extent to which we can expand the natural beyond what science has hitherto declared it to be.

Interesting. I see what you mean, but it doesn’t so much ignore the distinction as point out that, when we use words like “place” and “embody” and “exemplify” and “find its genesis,” we are deploying images that sound helpful, and probably capture metaphorically some of what is going on, but we don’t really understand it. The naturalist isn’t satisfied with that; they’re saying, “Explain this. Tell me how logic can be the sort of thing that is ‘embedded’ anywhere. I’ve got my microscope trained on the world, and I sure don’t see any logic embedded, no matter where I look.” In short, a placement problem.

Yes, and you explain it well, and it helps focus the issue.

This puts it starkly. And the naturalist replies, “OK, if this is true, we have some explaining to do! You seem to depict a very strict dualism between the natural and the semantic. The ‘bridge,’ as you put it, is the physical computer, which ‘allows these semantics to operate at all.’ But we’re so used to accepting this picture as obviously how things are, that we’ve lost sight of how strange it is, and how hard to justify in what I call scientific terms. What is a ‘semantic law’ – some kind of ghost or fiction? You say it is defined by fiat. Very well; how is that any different from saying it is made up? How can a made-up, immaterial item be given a genuine place in a scientific account of how things are?” (But notice that this can be asked about scientific laws as well!)

Yes, that does surprise me a little. Perhaps the above considerations will be food for thought.

Yes, one can. The conversation Price is part of doesn’t do that, of course, but rather assumes that the world of naturalism is a world we encounter.

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I still think you are missing my point. The point is not to posit a stark dualism between natural law on the one side, and the made up laws of (for instance) computers, on the other. Rather, the point is to show how these both ultimately form a monism, without placing these made up terms in the natural world. These made up terms belong to their own domain. And this is fine, so long as this domain itself can be shown to be instantiable by the natural world. And that this instantiation is trivial in the case of computers.

If the example of computers doesn’t resonate, consider language. Some words seem trivially placeable in the natural world: electron, bullfrog, river, virus. For others, that placement is far more problematic: truth, immorality, meaning, irony. The choice is not: either these words are somehow placeable in the natural world after all, or they are metaphor, poetry, fluff. No, these words ultimately find their place in the semantic web of language itself. Words, whose meaning is expressible only as words, which is recursively true of those words in turn. This is not a threat to naturalism, so long as these networks of meaning themselves can be instantiated by the physical word. By, in this case, physical brains able to create associations between sounds and any arbitrary set of mental items. Nor is it an attack on these words themselves. These semantic relationships can be meaningful, and ultimately guide action, just by virtue of the structure of their self-contained semantic networks.