Metascience: The Limits and Horizons of Scientific Knowledge

I ask myself: “What if scientific explanation is the most plausible, or most likely, logical explanation for the internal coherence of a logical paradigm in an artificial system?”

Even before being metaphysical, the question is profoundly epistemological, and I pose it in that sense.

Because if we accept the idea that scientific explanation means “the method science uses to interpret a model of reality” (which inevitably becomes “the model” of reality), and that to do so it is based on the triad of observation-experimentation-falsifiability, and if we consider this sufficient based on the acceptance that its limits are exhausted by the contingency of scientific immaturity, lack of knowledge, and technical inadequacy, then it could be argued that it represents the most plausible logical explanation within the current paradigm of human knowledge. However, the concept of logical plausibility may not have these margins that we consider unique, given, and decisive, but may be relative, for example, to a broader system or an artificial construction with its own paradigm of internal coherence that can impose specific subdomains of coherence. If we imagine an artificial system with its own autonomous internal logic, with its own method of inference, what appears plausible or plausible might not coincide with our scientific conception and even derive from different rules, perhaps based on different axioms. In a similar system, what is “plausible” to us might not be, or vice versa.

This is, therefore, a question concerning the role of science as a method of knowledge and the possible existence of metascientific methods capable of evaluating it from the outside. The reflections thus far lead me to formulate an even more specific question: is science the most plausible explanation simply because we are inserted into a specific epistemic framework, or is it intrinsically the most plausible explanation in an absolute sense? I ask this because, to believe that science is objectively descriptive of reality regardless of the system in which it is placed, I would have to adopt a position of strong scientific realism, but I see nothing that can prove or guarantee that that position is actually the “correct” one, and in particular the only correct one. So the further question might be: is it conceivable that a metascience exists, that is, a superior method capable of evaluating science itself in relation to other possible systems? To question a metascience is, in essence, to ask whether there is a superior criterion for evaluating our criteria, and here (if only because of a strong connection with his work) I think of Gödel, but to acknowledge that, as far as reality and what reality “is” are concerned, we have no superior method that can evaluate science itself in relation to other possible systems to tell us whether it is a subset of a larger truth or, indeed, a crude approximation of a further reality whose scope is beyond our capacity to comprehend. It’s not my intention to be a “barroom Godelian,” since I fully understand that the reference to Gödel, however suggestive, must be used with caution (also because this same objection I raise today to myself I raised many years ago to a priest who tried to exploit Gödel’s work under the pretense of proving God in an online discussion). Incompleteness theorems concern sufficiently expressive formal systems (arithmetic), but not “reality” as such. In any case, they are useful as an epistemic metaphor and indicate a precise internal limit: no powerful system can guarantee both completeness and coherence. Similarly, Tarski’s truth indefinability theorem suggests that the truth of a language cannot be defined in that language: a metalanguage is needed.

Could all this, then, be an indicator that this reality is not primary, authentic, and original? I would say yes, but not only that: the same reality could derive from a further reality that is itself derived, since the dilemma of primordial authenticity would arise for any level higher than ours, falling irremediably into the abyss of recursion.

But would it make sense to ask this question, and above all, why? A collateral philosophical question therefore arises: is the discourse on the search for authenticity “necessary”? Which, upon closer inspection, is the dilemma that asks what differentiates the natural from the artificial in the biological realm. The ultimate question, therefore, is whether this knowledge of primary authenticity is fundamental (and therefore imperative), or whether it can be included within the scope of human knowledge, or whether it cannot be included within it. Personally, I think not; I consider it superfluous knowledge if understood as urgent, if understood as a duty to act, as a duty to investigate, as a fundamental question. I think that any awareness of human activity and its actual further possibilities would bring nothing. But this is my very personal perspective on the dilemma. The open perspective is instead twofold: either we suspend judgment (and therefore accept the impossibility of determining the ultimate origin), or we employ a pragmatic criterion, whereby, regardless of the nature of the origin, we continue to rely on what is operationally stable and coherent at our level (predictions, technologies, value systems, ethics), without the shadow of artificiality becoming a tool of paralysis. In any case, on a purely probabilistic level, it is more realistic to think of being within a simulation rather than immersed in the primary reality. Secondly, here, as already highlighted, we fall into periodicity: not even our hypothetical simulators would have any certainty per se that they are the authentic ones and not, in turn, simulated. Regarding the anxieties induced by the thought that simulated reality could be interrupted for the purpose achieved (study, observation, etc.), it is assumed (and at least hoped) that the potential creators, being so technologically advanced, have also developed an ethical system that takes into account the fate of any sentient entities generated (and it is precisely on this specific aspect that I will propose, in the coming days, another reflection of mine, in a dedicated post).

Continuing our reflection, however, it would be reductive to think that there is, in concrete terms, no difference between the two cases. This point is crucial, because the difference is very powerful and fully affects the value system. It is true that a simulation would not be “less real” phenomenally, but it would still be ontologically derived, dependent, and therefore not self-founded. This inauthenticity would have crucial consequences on the value level, particularly on the religious and fideistic level: in an original universe, the question of God is genuinely open, whereas in a simulation, the origin of existence is already fixed (by an architect, demiurge, puppeteer, programmer… call it what you will), even if inaccessible to the simulated. Therefore, there would be an objective flaw in the faith that postulates an absolute Creator of existence. That faith would be completely out of focus: not in subjective terms (since believers couldn’t know this), but objectively: faith would be ontologically flawed. Indeed, in an authentic reality, faith makes sense precisely because it is a free act in the face of uncertainty and thus, in the absence of certain answers, provides its ethical and existential value. Believing or not believing are legitimate choices only in an authentic context, where the unknowability of the origin is structural, not decided.

But if we were immersed in a simulation, even this freedom of choice would be lost. We could even be programmed to believe or be skeptical. And if God existed, he would no longer be God, but merely a higher level of reality,an engineer, for example.

Does the simulation hypothesis, then, annihilate every fideistic perspective? This is a question I would answer with a “neither.” On the one hand, theology could be saved by shifting the focus, for example by postulating a Creator God, the first cause and foundation of all levels. However, upon closer inspection, this would undermine the idea of ​​a Creator God, so dear to monotheisms, because the perspective would quickly slide into polytheism, opening the door to the idea of ​​many creators, each directly responsible for their own level. This would be unacceptable, because in monotheisms, “God” is not a limited demiurge, a kind of “internal craftsman at a single level,” but is the absolute foundation of all that is. Therefore, if we wished to preserve the concept of a monotheistic God within the context of the simulation hypothesis, then we should imagine Him as the one who simultaneously establishes all levels. In this way, the “local creators” would not be equal to God, but simply creatures operating within the overall framework willed by God. Therefore, God would not be “another programmer higher up,” but rather the creator of both the programmers and the programmed.

But then, even if God were the being that founds all demiurges, what would change for the simulated ones? Nothing, because they would still be inauthentic, not being God’s direct/primary creation. Only the “first authentic” ones would be authentic, so, even in this case, the problem arises again and again.

To try to save both the goat and the cabbage, let’s imagine a layered ontology, in which the beings at the first level are more authentic because they are directly created, while the derived ones are less so. But even this attempt immediately collapses when critically examined: who decides how “less authentic” they are? Furthermore, would their experience of existence be the same as that of the authentic ones? And how can this be verified? There really is no plausible answer here. We could then hypothesize an equal authenticity for all, because if God is the ultimate (and primary) foundation, then every entity that exists, even mediated, is authentic because it is rooted in Him. In this sense, the simulated would be no less authentic; their existence would still depend on God, even if not directly. However, here the term simulation, which we are discussing, would be emptied of any philosophical meaning, because everything would become equally authentic, without distinction. This is, in essence, an insoluble problem through infinite recursion, since every time we imagine a higher level, the question arises again: who is “truly authentic”? If by “authentic” we mean being first, then no one can be so with certainty, because the chain could be infinite and the only authentic being, at this point, would be God himself, and everything else relative.

I therefore believe the fracture that the simulation hypothesis creates in classical theology is irreparable because in the monotheistic paradigm I can affirm “I am willed by God,” but in a multilevel simulation I could at most say “I exist, and if God is the foundation of everything, then He includes me indirectly.”

I also believe that the simulation hypothesis raises unavoidable value issues, first and foremost the verticalization of ethics, which would shift both upward -with the responsibility of simulators toward the simulated-and onto us, with the responsibility of producing our own ethical system that takes into account any generated entities (a question that, among other things, seems more relevant than ever these days).

In conclusion? In conclusion, nothing, because there are no answers, only open questions. However, I’d like to know your point of view on all this “meat in the fire.”

Science commands so much respect, even deep love, because of its universal appeal. From the humble pressure cooker to the cutting-edge Curiosity Mars rover, it’s all science. I hesitate to say that science has limitations; it’s omnipotent as far as I’m concerned. You must know that science vies with God (creator deity) as an epistemic foundation. Anything that can do that is unlikely to be trivial.

Simulation/not science is probably an invariant, the common denominator.

The answer to bad science is good science, not religion

the answer to bad religion is good religion, not science

:confused:

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I understand the point; it seems to me to be based on strong assumptions. I don’t think science is unlimited, because it seems to me to be based on both its progression through trial and error, its overcoming of previous limitations, and its inability to determine a universal foundation. The “game” with God and science, however, is over for me; I believe that “God” isn’t even a question, but one of the most convenient answers.

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The success of science isn’t as conspicuous as in physics. I believe some physics calculations are correct to an accuracy of 16 decimal places. Physicists work out the mass of particles at the level of 6 \sigma. That’s a confidence interval >99\%. However this degree of mathematization and precision is not to be found in the other branches of science (?). Nevertheless, quite impressive as science is only around 400 years old. Imagine what another 1000 years of science can do.

Einstein wasn’t a theist but he was a deist; something about Baruch Spinoza’s Deus siv natura resonated with the old chap. Yet, he wasn’t able to reconcile the 2 most powerful perspectives in physics, SR/GR and QM. Unification of the 2 has proved difficult and elusive, (discounting hyper-abstract string theory). Perhaps you can consider this a limitation of science.

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What can I say? The term “science” is a catch-all term, but I think it’s unrealistic to think that some sciences are “more sciences” than others. If we were to hierarchize them and call only the top level “science,” then physics wouldn’t be a science either, only mathematical logic, I think. I have an idea about string theory that emerges from the overall discourse of a thought I developed and discussed in my first post (I don’t know how to put it here, but I’m new and I’ve only made two posts, so not this one, but my other one). If you’d like, feel free to take a look.

I quickly skimmed the rest of your massive post, but honestly, I could have stopped right there.

This question is meaningless because you are absurdly over-inflating what “science” actually is.

Here are the true limits and horizons of scientific knowledge: Science is simply knowledge recognized as true solely because it demonstrates an incommensurable power in effectiveness and prediction compared to non-scientific methods.

Furthermore, this predictive power fundamentally exists only for Physics (the Matter category). Scientific knowledge in Biology only genuinely exists at the physico-chemical level; its core is physical in nature.

As for “Human scientific knowledge” (the social sciences), it simply does not exist. It is nothing more than the functional equivalent of a clerical stance—religion disguised as data.

If you have questions about what is happening inside an artificial system, don’t invent pseudo-metascience; just ask the software engineers who built it.

I suspect your real underlying motivation here comes from the anxiety that AI finally seems to be addressing something fundamental about human nature.

That specific issue can only be answered by real Philosophy, because, as I just established, Science has absolutely nothing to say about human nature.

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Hi Mr. Cogito, I understand that a quick read might misunderstand the meaning of my long post, and I apologize for the length (that’s a flaw of mine; I also wrote a reflection on this topic on my blog, titled “In synthesis, I don’t know how to be synthetic”). However, here I’m not talking about AI, specifically, nor am I asking what happens in an artificial system “at our level,” so to speak (this would be clear, having read the whole thing before intervening). This is a reflection on the authenticity of our reality (I’m not saying: “I don’t know how an LLM works, I don’t know what happens in a PC that simulates an environment through a program… why ask a programmer? Better to reflect on “metascience””. That’s not the point.). Indeed, the subject you mention is a fairly obvious consequence of this reflection, and in fact I address it in a series of reflections I’ve called “metascience.” I’ll post it here later (I have to leave the house now), because it’s very relevant to what you write. As for the “meaning” of the question, which lacks it, I disagree. You speak of a religious attitude for other scientific disciplines, but establishing “the meaning” of questions is the orthodoxy of which non-scientific religion? Philosophy? (No polemical intent, just encouragement, and I thank you for your time).

Actually, science has nothing much to say about logical principles. The principles of logic have stood largely unchanged since Aristotle, and for good reason, as they concern the relations of ideas and principles, including the law of the excluded middle, law of identity, of non-contradiction, and so on. Science relies on those principles, but it doesn’t necessarily cause them to be altered, although it sometimes confounds them.

Paradigms are something different to principles. Paradigms are more like world-views or explanatory models comprising sets of related theories. According to Thomas Kuhn who made extensive use of the term in Structure of Scientific Revolutions, paradigms change or are overthrown when they are faced with evidence that threatens their internal consistency. The Ptolemaic cosmology was an example. Another was the sense in which the assumptions of classical physics were challenged by the discoveries of quantum physics.

Another important thing about modern scientific method is its reliance on abstraction and exclusion.

Abstraction, because it relies on the measurable attributes of those subjects that it studies, so as to render them amenable to quantitative analysis and mathematical logic.

Exclusion, because it rigorously defines its subject matter, such that it excludes extraneous considerations and factors which can’t be effectively quantified.

I think this is why physics has been regarded as paradigmatic for much of science generally, as it has enabled stupendous progress through the application of mathematical reasoning to observable phenomena. Newton’s laws were regarded as the model for universal scientific laws in their time, although they were somewhat eclipsed by relativity.

So, given this sketch of science, is a ‘meta-science’ possible? I would question that, insofar as modern scientific method does have universal applicability and endless possibility for discovery within the scope of its current operating procedures and assumptions. But I think the most telling critiques of science are from philosophy of science, like that of Thomas Kuhn, which looks critically at the assumptions of scientific method, not at simply how it could be further improved and refined on its own terms. The critiques of phenomenology likewise are not grounded in scientific method per se but in analyses of those founding assumptions of science, what they exclude, and the role and function of abstraction.

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Your so-called “metascience” is simply epistemology. If you had just added your specific attributes to it—calling it, say, “my super epistemology”—you would at least have avoided perpetrating the cardinal crime of Philosophy: bad naming.

The deeper problem is that epistemology is categorized as part of the “human sciences.” Therefore, it rests entirely on the fundamental delusion of believing that true scientific knowledge can be applied to human nature.

So, unless your actual goal is merely to siphon public grant money from some university humanities department, if you genuinely want to talk to people, it is much better to honestly present your work as what it actually is: a philosophical one.

I appreciate the gist of what you’re saying, but I wonder if both you and @Alfio could at this point say precisely which inquiries count as “sciences” in your opinion. Science is an approach, a series of assumptions if you like, but it doesn’t map perfectly onto actual disciplines or areas of inquiry, wouldn’t you agree? So which disciplines are we talking about in this thread?

Mr. Cogito, I don’t know if you’re referring to some specific controversy between the humanities and philosophy, but I can tell you that one of the first things you’re taught, for example, in sociology is that it’s not only a science, but also the most complex because its object of study is humankind, which by nature is changeable and inconstant. But I agree with you on this. Of course, observational work uses interdisciplinary scientific methods (statistics, psychology, research methodology, very often direct observation in the study of phenomena, and much more), but I agree with you, and in a hypothetical hierarchy, I certainly wouldn’t place it at the top: it’s a “superiority complex” that does exist, and it’s pervasive in some circles. I apologize for the inappropriate use of the term, for its invention, but the issue is, yes, epistemological, and that’s how I understood it. To answer @Jay, who asks “yes, but which science?”, in this case I’d say physics and mathematics, since they work together on fundamental questions. I haven’t responded to @Wayfarer, which I’ve read and agree with; I have nothing to add. It’s certainly an open question, a topic of discussion where I don’t think a solution will ever be reached. Now I’ll take the time to share a second reflection on the topic, precisely because of its relevance to what Mr. Cogito highlighted earlier.

Thanks. So when you write:

. . . we should read that as “the method mathematical physics uses”? I just want to get clear on what the claim is.

According to the Oxford Learner’s Dictionary, science is”

The systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. It is knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws, particularly obtained and tested through scientific methods.

  • The Study of the Natural World: The systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

  • Knowledge Based on Facts: Knowledge about the structure and behaviour of the natural and physical world, based on facts that can be proven, for example by experiments.

  • Systematised Knowledge: A system for organising knowledge about a particular subject, especially one dealing with aspects of human behaviour or society (e.g., “a science of international politics”)

To which I would add, the primary criterion of science is objectivity, which is, fact that can be measured, replicated and agreed on by any disinterested observer.

As to “what counts as science” - that is a more contested question, with psychology and social sciences examples of a subject which straddles the humanities and the formal sciences.

That’s a great description of science, thanks. The only bit I would question is the final claim that objectivity implies agreement by disinterested observers. Or actually, maybe “invites” is the right word – as long as we recognize that objectivity doesn’t mean you have to agree all the time. Perhaps the possibility of such agreement is enough.

So . . . what actual disciplines count as science? As you say, a contested question. Would you agree with @Alfio that, for purposes of his OP issue, we should limit ourselves to a discussion of mathematical physics?

Oh, you mean objectivity is actually subjective?

Sorry, I’m not understanding you. Are you taking “invites” literally? I just meant that objectivity offers the possibility that agreement may be reached, without necessarily guaranteeing it.

So, the OP is about God.

I don’t participate in God threads. I got curious because so much of the OP was devoted to the questioning of a higher authority than science.

I thought, Ah! Who regulates science?

I’m not particularly drawn to the topic either, though I was in years past when I needed to address it to further my atheism. I understand your feeling about not finding a consistent thread, but a series of digressions. If I said it was my mistake, I wouldn’t be correct. I should more precisely say it’s a limitation: I think I’ve realized that I should put the kind of thoughts I enjoy (which are, in effect, digressions that, while starting from a specific topic, then branch out) in the “general” section of the site. Otherwise, it seems like I’m offering something that isn’t actually there. And it’s actually irritating; I’d find it annoying myself. Therefore, aside from the two pieces of content I’ve already posted and which I can’t change (except, I think, by deleting them, but not by moving them to a more suitable area), if I post any more, they’ll definitely go in the general discussions of the forum. The forum actually has a very high standard in its specific sections, as I’ve noticed from the comments I’ve received from all the users. I wasn’t underestimating it; I’m simply new to this type of interaction and inexperienced.

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