Is the Ship of Theseus and the Teleporter Paradox the same thing?

I figured I’d ask here because I got out of some insane nonsense with another user and I need cooler heads or reasoning.

They said that it’s the same thing, about fundamental identity or just identity and I said it is identity but it’s different.

The Ship is more about at what point does it stop being the original ship and become something else, or is it still the same thing?

The Teleporter Paradox from my understanding is that if you break someone down and rebuild them on Mars then did they move or did you kill the original and make a copy.

I can see why they thought it was the same yet I feel like there are subtle differences between the two.

It’s not the same, because you would have made someone else and even if you did somehow make the same person, the original person on earth would still be alive. Unless you killed them.
The difference with the ship builder paradox is that it’s still the original ship in the same place, it hasn’t been rebuilt somewhere else. Or if it were a person rather than a ship and parts of their body were gradually replaced with synthetic replacements. Eventually the person would be entirely synthetic, but still the same person (life). Whereas the teleported person wouldn’t be the same person(life).

Much worse than simply “not the same,” this artificial comparison is purely virtual and results from a massive category confusion:

  • The ship is a human intention to travel by sea. The fact that every original piece of wood has been replaced, leading to the conclusion that it is not the “same” ship, is just dumb, sophistic, rhetorical insanity. The initial goal of the ship was never to freeze a specific heap of wooden planks for all eternity.

  • Teleportation holds only for particles in a quantum state. It categorically does not hold for a material object because a macroscopic object no longer belongs to quantum reality. Decoherence has already occurred, and the object now strictly belongs to relativistic, space-time material reality.

For starters, they have actually teleported a thing, a small quantum object. The question came up: “Is it the same one?”. Answer given: what difference does it make?

Identity is not a physical concept. It’s a useful concept, no more. It’s the same ship if you want it to be, if the lawyers have no issue with it.

The ship and person are not identical cases since the ship is done a bit at a time, not all at once. That seems to be most of the difference.

The ship thing is more analogous to simple aging. Far less than 1% of your body mass is original atoms. Are you the same person you were ‘originally’? By convention, sure, you are, so ‘identity of the parts’ is not what maintains identity of either a person or a ship.

The teleportation is more analogous to taking the ship completely apart and reassembling the same parts in a different drydock. Such methods have been used to ‘teleport’ a VW beetle into a room with a door far too small to get it through.

We’re talking teleportation, not cloning. Teleportation works like Star Trek transporter: It doesn’t leave an original anywhere, unless it’s convenient to today’s plot. In the real teleportation experiment, there is no copy left behind. Such would violate Heisenburg’s uncertainty.

Yes, cloning (photocopying) is in principle possible, but that’s a different challenge to the whole identity issue.

I don’t think that really answers the question though.

But to the other stuff the guy I was arguing against thought that it was possible to be immortal by scanning our brains and uploading them to some AI…so logic wasn’t strong I guess.

The notion of identity is, for some reason, hard enough when you try to identify an apple on your table. Just define the identity of that thing on your table, and you will have issues. And then to complicate it, you leave for an hour, come back and say “that is the same apple on the table”. Now “identity” becomes a huge conundrum right there.

Then, to start with a ship that has parts, we have the usual identity problems; then we replace planks until every piece of the “ship” is replaced, and ask “is the identity of the ship now the same as it was when I first called it a ship before replacing all of its planks”? Huge pickles.

I would rather not think a teleporter will help lock down the notion of “identity”. But the teleporter example seems to want to get at continuity of consciousness and personal identity issues. So it is different as much as being a conscious mind is different than being a ship, but really, what the hell is a “teleporter” and why are we teleporting people through it and wondering about personal identity now? We don’t know what an apple is, let alone a ship, or ship with all of its planks replaced, let alone a living person, let alone a consciousness…

I don’t think there are any differences between all of these scenarios highlighting the various complications surrounding “identity”, but ultimately they just mingle parts and wholes asking about a single, identifiable “thing”.

So, I think you can distinguish these a bit, but ultimately, they ask first and foremost “what is a thing” or “what is identity”.

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But it does answer the questions, as far as I can at least. The first part says that identity of anything is a matter of chosen convention. It’s the same person or ship if you decide it is, and it isn’t if you decide otherwise. The statement constitutes an assertion that there’s nothing more to it than that. An example demonstrating otherwise (one with no opinion being invoked) would counter that assertion.

The second half of what you quote answers the topic title question: Are the two scenarios the same case? My answer is no, for the reasons given. I followed that with examples of scenarios more similar to either the ship thing or the teleport thing.

But to the other stuff the guy I was arguing against thought that it was possible to be immortal by scanning our brains and uploading them to some AI…so logic wasn’t strong I guess.

That’s an incredible stretch. What does any AI want to do with a scan of somebody’s brain? It’s just a data file. The AI I suppose can learn from it, but it doesn’t grant anything immortality. One can simulate the brain, but a brain without a body would simply be a simulation of a very quickly dying organ. No AI is needed to do that. It’s just brute simulation, all very simple, but with a very large data set, sort of like simulations of car crashes.

So you upload not a brain, but a person in a small room constituting his life support system. To the person thus simulated, he’d live out his life in a little jail, and die subjectively just as fast as would the person scanned. The simulation would need to violate physics if it was to prevent accidents and other aging from occurring.
It is unclear what entity would supply the resources to run such a simulation, or if it could run at a pace sufficiently fast to interact with the real world.

Yes, but I was pointing out the problem with the idea. To actually teleport a person as in Star Trek, every sub atomic particle and every cellular structure of the person would have to be maintained and kept alive, as it is while the person is alive, during the teleportation, otherwise the person would have been killed and the same combination of subatomic particles and atoms etc would be assembled at the other end and somehow brought to life. And even if you could reassemble like this, it would be likely be someone else, not the same life that you started out with.

So the whole idea is a nonsense, because you would be destroying the person at the beginning and making a new person at the other end and at the beginning you would have killed someone, and at the end you would have to bring someone to life.

It’s theoretically possible to do this, but the only way we will know if there is a continuation of consciousness is to try it and see what happens. The way it is usually understood is that you would gradually make small changes to the persons brain, by adding synthetic components, eventually the person would have a synthetic brain. Then you would simply transfer this brain into an advanced computer, maintaining a continuation of consciousness throughout.

By what convention of identity does this work? Why can’t we simply choose a different convention? You do say ‘likely’, implying that you’re not adamant about your choice.

The scenario described (a sort of teleportation by simple destruction and building of a new X instead of moving it) has a very related discussion by Donal Davidson, 1987

IT does not, rather you are avoiding it by not engaging with the terms. Just saying it’s the same if you decide it is is being disingenuous. The statement with the Ship asks at what point does it stop being the same ship or would it. Either engage with it or don’t. It’s not saying identity is a matter of chosen convention there are reasons we have for ascribing identity to certain things and you’re ignoring that.

And both of those were bad as I explained already since you’re not really engaging with either thought experiment, just a surface level dismissal.

That was part of my initial assessment, he thought that high intelligence coincided with benevolence when there is no such link. Also there is no reason for such a super intelligent AI to care about us let alone scan our brains. It just seemed like he was assuming A LOT.

We do know what an apple is and a ship. The thought experiment is more about if you replace everything is it the same ship or something new, there are interesting answers to it.

The concept of identity I don’t think is as nebulous or hard as you are making it out but I don’t think it’s easy either.

The Ship is usually framed as a question about objects and thresholds. The Teleporter is framed as a question about persons.

That framing difference is what makes them feel distinct — and you are not wrong to sense it. But once you recognize that the Ship was never really about ships, it was always about a person and their body gradually replacing itself over time, that distinction dissolves. Both are questions about persons. And the only mechanical difference between them is speed — the Ship replaces gradually over time, the Teleporter all at once. Once they’re both about persons, the same question applies to both — does the subject feel continuous through the change or not.

And that answer is different for every individual. There is no universal answer. It depends entirely on the subject.

That was me engaging, and apparently you dismissing my suggestion, all without demonstrating otherwise. I did not suggest the absence of say pragmatic reasons to presume one convention over another.

The USS Constitution (oldest warship still afloat) is about 1/8 original material. Were they ever to replace that part, I doubt they’d stop saying it’s the same ship. There’s a replica of the Mayflower in Plymouth. Nobody claims it’s the same ship, but wouldn’t the Constitution be a replica were the keel to be replaced?

There’s a temple/castle in China that’s 2000 years old, looking very pristine because it was rebuild from scratch only a couple years ago, all new material. Are they wrong to say it’s a 2000 year old building, or are they just choosing a different convention?

I presume here that ‘he’ is this ‘other user’ referenced in the OP.
A simulation of something complex like a human is a brute task best done by a device with lots of memory and almost no code. AI (benevolent or otherwise) is of no use at all. I’ve run simulations of complex systems (a new computer chip say). It took weeks to simulate perhaps 0.4 seconds of chip operation, but that was enough to generally assess if it worked, and where it’s limits were. A couple weeks of computer time is far less expensive that making a real prototype, identifying it’s weak points, and try again with another. This is also why car crashes (complete with dummy people) are mostly done virtually, not physically. The physical tests are mostly done to demonstrate the validity of the virtual models.

Anyway, AI was useless for any of this (and didn’t exist at the time). I don’t know why it was brought up at all in your earlier discussion. AI is it’s own thing, not a continuation of an ‘uploaded’ person. It’s an entirely inappropriate tool to run any kind of simulation at all.

It really depends how you’re using them. They both present two different questions (although, the Branch Line case is really required to make this truly parallel) in different ways, i think:

  1. What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of X; and

  2. How does the actual world changing/causing changes in it affect (or even effect) change in those conditions.

You’ll see that the initial Transporter case doesn’t quite do the latter, but you can talk about it in those terms - so I’ll say what I think about each, w/respect to OP rather than ‘takes’ on them.

Theseus Ship:

  1. We have to decide whether the material is what makes the ship Theseus’ Ship or our choice for it to be that ship;
  2. We have to decide whether or not changing world affects our answer to 1. (i.e once say 50% of the “ship” has been replaced, is it “the same” ship - which may not be the same question as is it “Theseus’ Ship”. Because the latter is choice-drive, and hte former is contigent.

Transporter:

  1. We need to answer what makes a person that person (analogous to “Theseus’ Ship” as opposed “the same” ship); and
  2. We need to decide whether those derived facts affect what we call Identity.

Luckily, there is a book which treats - at extreme length - both of these issues, including the Branch Line version of the Transporter: Reasons & Persons by Derek Parfit.

The conclusion there, which I take, is that psychological continuity is what makes one the same person over time (ala FireOlogist’s comments). There is no necessary and sufficient conditions for personal identity.

When it comes to the Theseus considerations, I think the key point he makes is that the problem isn’t even interesting until you add this:

Once say, 70% of hte ship has been replaced, the removed material is then re-built into an objectively different ship. Does this now mean that the original is no longer the same ship, but in fact still “Theseus’ Ship”, or is the new one Theseus’ Ship, despite not being “the same” ship?

The relationship between “the same” and the chosen label sort of breaks down - and leads to a fairly safe conclusion that identity simply does not matter.

The Ship of Theseus paradox, the teletransportation paradox, the Water-H2O paradox, so on and so forth, they are all identity paradoxes. They arise if you take abstract identity too literally, as if Theseus’s ship or “you” actually exist as an autonomous thing-in-itself in the real world. These kinds of paradoxes arise because it mistakes abstract identity for a physical thing in the world, when it identity is not real to begin with.

If identity is real, then it is a real, physical property some systems possess. My cat would possess the property of the identity of “cat,” but my cup of coffee would not. Of course, my cat did not exist forever, so it could not have had that property forever, and so there must be a definite moment in time when it acquires this property. Not just in time, but also in space: there must be unambiguous boundaries between where my “cat” begins and where it ends.

This is what Friedrich Engels largely tried to point out in his book “Dialectics of Nature,” that whenever you try to draw these boundaries in time and space, you quickly realize how ambiguous they are, how it is not actually possible to draw “hard-and-fast” lines separating things in the real world. Whenever you investigate an object more closely, you find that the boundaries between it and everything else disappear.

Abstract identity is better understood as a high-level abstraction created by humans. Reality does not contain autonomous things-in-themselves like cats, chairs, “you,” ships, etc, each understood as an autonomous object conceivable as existing in itself with unambiguous boundaries between itself and everything else.

Reality, to quote Jocelyn Benoist, just is what it is. It does not care how you label it, or even if you label it at all. These labels are socially constructed means by which we break up reality into smaller chunks in order for us to more easily discuss it as a social process, and the labels, the identity, does not possess any sort of real existence. They are all normative.

Indeed, to some extent, it has always been both necessary and proper for man, in his thinking, to divide things up, and to separate them, so as to reduce his problems to manageable proportions; for evidently, if in our practical technical work we tried to deal with the whole of reality all at once, we would be swamped…However, when this mode of thought is applied more broadly…then man ceases to regard the resulting divisions as merely useful or convenient and begins to see and experience himself and his world as actually constituted of separately existent fragments…fragmentation is continually being brought about by the almost universal habit of taking the content of our thought for ‘a description of the world as it is’. Or we could say that, in this habit, our thought is regarded as in direct correspondence with objective reality. Since our thought is pervaded with differences and distinctions, it follows that such a habit leads us to look on these as real divisions, so that the world is then seen and experienced as actually broken up into fragments.

— David Bohm, “Wholeness and the Implicate Order”

I guess you have a point about that. Though I don’t think speed is an issue. It’s more a difference in kind. The teleporter asks that if you break someone down and copy them to Mars then did you transport someone or did you actually kill them and just duplicate them?

The ship I think is more about identity itself and at what point something ceases to be the original thing, if it even ceases to be the original.

I don’t think it’s about a things in and of themselves at all and Engels had it wrong. Also the boundaries aren’t entirely as ambiguous as philosophy makes them sound.

Identity from the evidence we gather about life forms and other things around us seems to be real, but it’s more complex than just placing something into a box and calling it a day.

If you wanted a more nuanced view of identity I think Eastern thought nailed it by saying nothing exists nor not exists.

This is not engaging with any of the paradoxes though so I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up. In a sense “abstracted identity” is a “physical” thing in the world so engage with the terms of the argument instead of trying to circumvent it.

Never mind that you’re already in trouble using the term “physical thing” while trying to attack identity.

There’s a lot of issues with this view, especially since as a physicist he should know better. Nevermind his mistaken view of “The whole of reality” but more that reality does seem to operate in a way that is consistent with the way we divide it up, otherwise such divisions would cease to be useful. He’s not the first physicist to have wild views like this though.

It’s not that our thought is in direct correspondence with reality, but I would add that that would also include his thoughts about wholeness and reality being undivided which is also a thought. Instead of divisions and distinctions his THOUGHT is pervaded with the opposite. By his logic neither one would be “True”.

This reminds me of a Zen koan “not one, not two”.

Parfit doesn’t actually treat either of those situations in his book and having seen his take he tends to leave it open ended.

Psychological continuity is a strong contender to be sure but that’s not what the Ship is about and it’s not really what the teleporter is about.

I did demonstrate it, you didn’t engage with the terms of the argument and tried to circumvent it. Trying to argue from convention is ignoring the questions.

Well he was using the identity arguments to try and support his point about being able to upload yourself into an AI and effectively become immortal. Though arguing against him didn’t really work because he just dismissed any criticism as “You don’t understand” and “my intellect is superior and I will be chosen by AI”.

They are the basis for the second half of the book.

It seems perhaps you are making comments where you ought not to be. This is the contents page for the opening of that section:

The transporter and branchline case are HIS thought experiments. And he concludes that psychological continuity is what matters for identity.

As for the Ship, perhaps he doesn’t name it, but describes it perfectly and then analogised into the human body (which is what matters)


It may be worth reading the book first. This comes across almost as a troll…