If Nothing Survives Death, Can Conscious Life Still Be Circular?

I am not academically trained in philosophy. My background and way of thinking are closer to those of a technician, and I approach consciousness from a broadly materialist perspective.

I would like to submit an idea for criticism rather than present it as an established theory.

The starting point was personal, although the argument itself does not depend on those experiences.

When I was around six or seven years old, I woke up one morning with the very strong impression of becoming conscious. I do not mean that I had forgotten what came before. It felt more like there had been no previous experience at all, and that I was suddenly present.

Much later, I also experienced several recurring dreams involving a familiar place behind my father’s house. In the dreams, part of the garden and surrounding land had become a paved area, with parking spaces, houses and a road. Many years later, before which no such development had been announced, houses, parking areas and a road were actually built there.

I do not consider either experience evidence of anything supernatural. Childhood memory is unreliable, dreams can coincide with future events, and memories can be reconstructed. They were simply what led me to think about recurrence, consciousness and time.

The initial idea

My first thought was that perhaps, after death, we begin our lives again.

But this immediately creates a serious problem: what could pass from one life to another?

I do not find the idea of a soul plausible. Consciousness seems to me to be produced by the functioning of the brain. When the brain is destroyed, the present conscious process ends. Memory, personality and subjective experience do not continue somewhere else.

There is therefore no obvious carrier capable of transporting a self or its memories from the end of one life to the beginning of another.

This led me to a different possibility:

Perhaps nothing is transported because nothing needs to be transported.

No surviving subject

The present conscious instance genuinely ends at death. It does not travel, wait or wake up elsewhere.

Non-existence is not an experience. Before our birth, we did not experience billions of years of darkness. There was simply no subject there to experience an interval.

If the same complete physical and mental organization existed again, it would produce the same first-person experience without receiving anything from a previous instance.

This resembles repeated executions of the same process. No material from one execution needs to enter the next for the same organization and behaviour to appear.

That comparison raises the familiar problem of identity. Would the resulting consciousness be the same consciousness, or merely a perfect duplicate?

From an external perspective, we might count two physical instances. But from the perspective of either conscious system, each would say:

“I am me.”

If the two lives were absolutely identical in every physical, psychological and phenomenal respect, what would justify saying that there were two conscious subjects rather than one conscious structure instantiated or counted twice?

From repetition to circularity

The usual language of repetition may itself be misleading.

To say that life happens once, then happens again, assumes an external sequence:

life 1, life 2, life 3, and so on.

That sequence immediately leads to the question of whether there was a first occurrence.

I wonder whether the circle offers a better model.

A circle has no naturally privileged first or last point. We can choose a place from which to begin describing it, but the circle itself does not begin there.

Similarly, a conscious life could be understood as one complete structure that has no first or last occurrence.

From within the life, time is experienced linearly:

childhood, adulthood, old age and death.

But the complete conscious existence might be structurally circular. Its end would not cause or transmit anything to its beginning. The two would simply belong to the same closed totality.

Nothing would cross the boundary between death and birth. There would be no soul, no memory transfer and no hidden surviving observer.

There might also be no series of separate copies.

There would be one unique conscious life, without a first or final occurrence, experienced locally as a singular and linear present.

I have been calling this idea the circular uniqueness of consciousness.

What the proposal does not claim

It does not claim that an individual survives death.

It does not claim that consciousness exists independently of the brain.

It does not require reincarnation, a soul, supernatural memory or a traveller moving through time.

The present conscious process still ends completely when the brain ceases to function.

Nor does the proposal by itself explain unusual dreams or déjà vu. Those experiences may have ordinary psychological explanations. In a strictly circular model, they could not straightforwardly be memories transported from a previous cycle, because there would be no previous cycle as a separate event.

The central question

The proposal therefore depends on a problem of individuation:

If two conscious histories are physically, psychologically and phenomenally identical in every respect, what makes them two numerically distinct experiences rather than one conscious structure described as occurring twice?

A critic might answer that two identical processes remain two processes, just as two identical computers remain two computers.

But consciousness creates a first-person difficulty that ordinary objects do not obviously present. There is no observable additional property corresponding to “which copy I am.” Each instance contains the same complete self-location and the same experience of being the unique present subject.

My questions are therefore:

  1. Is there an established philosophical position close to this idea, beyond eternal recurrence, eternalism or open individualism?
  2. What criterion would justify counting perfectly identical conscious histories as numerically distinct subjects?
  3. Can a circular structure be meaningful without a causal link carrying information from its end to its beginning?
  4. Does the proposal confuse qualitative identity with numerical identity, or is that distinction itself questionable when applied to first-person experience?
  5. Would a block-universe interpretation make circular recurrence unnecessary, since each conscious moment would already exist as part of one complete structure?

I would be grateful for references, objections or reformulations. I am especially interested in arguments that could show exactly where the reasoning fails.

If the universe is contained within something, death, may be the unification between us and that thing and whatever it’s linked to.

The universe does look like it’s contained by a greater power.

Death is the end of an alive vessel.

There is a factor of consciousness beyond a live vessel; a personal experience.

It can’t be said that that part, is nothing, after death; yet we cannot trace it to find whether it has continued.

I have a theory of an electro-cube that has the opposite kind of genesis to a bio-sphere. Perhaps we end up in an electro-cube, in what’s regarded as another place in the multiverse.

A lot of us dream, which shows something miraculous happening to that private part, it can be transported to a different state.

Plus, dreams occur while we sleep, which is a relative of death.

I haven’t studied your entire message–though it seems well-written–but I can’t really understand myself as an entity. Rather, I think of myself as a process. I am not the same being from moment to moment. I am just a process moving through the world. So I am wondering exactly what it is which you ask might survive. Anyway, I hope my bad back isn’t going along.

[quote=“Garon, post:2, topic:1840, full:true”]
If the universe is contained within something, death, may be the unification between us and that thing and whatever it’s linked to.

The universe does look like it’s contained by a greater power.

Death is the end of an alive vessel.

There is a factor of consciousness beyond a live vessel; a personal experience.

It can’t be said that that part, is nothing, after death; yet we cannot trace it to find whether it has continued.

I have a theory of an electro-cube that has the opposite kind of genesis to a bio-sphere. Perhaps we end up in an electro-cube, in what’s regarded as another place in the multiverse.

A lot of us dream, which shows something miraculous happening to that private part, it can be transported to a different state.

Plus, dreams occur while we sleep, which is a relative of death.
Thank you for the response. Your proposal seems to take a very different route from mine, which is useful for clarifying the issue.

You appear to assume that there is a personal component of consciousness that exists beyond the living brain and may be transferred into another structure or realm after death. My starting point is deliberately more restrictive: I assume that consciousness is entirely produced by brain activity, and that when the brain permanently stops functioning, the conscious instance genuinely ends.

For that reason, I am trying to avoid introducing a new carrier, substance or container unless there is an independent reason to think it exists. An “electro-cube” may be imaginable, but at the moment I do not see what evidence or mechanism would distinguish it from any other possible post-mortem hypothesis.

I would also separate sleep from death. During sleep the brain remains highly active, and dreaming is produced by that continuing activity. Death, in the relevant sense, is the irreversible end of the activity that supports experience.

So my question is almost the opposite of yours: can recurrence or circularity be conceived without assuming that any part of consciousness survives, travels or is stored elsewhere?

In other words, I am asking whether the same complete conscious structure could be understood as unique and circular, even though each biological instance ends completely.

[quote=“BestGuessYet, post:3, topic:1840, full:true”]
I haven’t studied your entire message–though it seems well-written–but I can’t really understand myself as an entity. Rather, I think of myself as a process. I am not the same being from moment to moment. I am just a process moving through the world. So I am wondering exactly what it is which you ask might survive. Anyway, I hope my bad back isn’t going along.
I think your description of yourself as a process is very close to my own starting point.

I am not suggesting that there is a permanent entity or inner substance that survives. In fact, I assume the opposite: the conscious process depends entirely on the functioning brain, and when that functioning ends, the present process ends as well.

So perhaps “survival” is the wrong word for what I am trying to describe.

My question is not whether an entity continues from one life to another. It is whether a complete conscious process, considered as an entire history, could have no first or last occurrence.

Suppose the same total process existed again in exactly the same physical, psychological and phenomenal form. Nothing would have travelled from one occurrence to another, and no subject would have survived the gap.

The question would then be: what makes those two numerically distinct conscious processes rather than one complete conscious structure counted twice?

The circular model is my attempt to avoid both a surviving entity and an endless sequence of copies. It treats the whole conscious history as the relevant unit, rather than the person at any one moment.

And yes, I agree that there are parts of the process one might prefer not to preserve—bad backs included.

If nothing survives. i m referring it with a thing in it. If you can describe nothing without a thing, or a word existence as in non-existence. Then that will answer the question. Because your question is describing nothing in an incomplete way but looks complete. Infact nothing do exists but only in language. And something like language shouldn’t decide universe which is made of mathematics and many sciences, where even they are incomplete.

The problem for accounts of first person experience revolve around the function of memory. If crossing the river Lethe wipes away the memory of being oneself, then the process of incarnation is a queue of individuals about to emerge that has nothing to do with your experiences as your experiences.

It seems to me that what I am includes my body. Proprioception, hormonal stuff, a sense of myself in the world. Are you saying that my body might come back? If not, it’s hard for me to imagine my consciousness being the same without it.

Thank you. I think I agree with the warning about language.

When I say that “nothing survives,” I do not mean that there is a thing called nothingness which remains after death.

I mean something more limited: the conscious process ends, and there is no longer any subject having an experience.

So I am not describing non-existence as a state inhabited by someone. I am saying that there is no experience at all.

I also agree that language can make a metaphysical picture seem more complete than it really is. Words such as “nothing,” “survival,” “return” and even “same consciousness” may already contain assumptions that need to be examined.

But my main question remains: if an identical conscious history occurs more than once, what makes those occurrences numerically distinct experiences rather than one complete structure counted several times?

I am not sure that the limits of language alone answer that question, but they may show that the way I formulate it still needs improvement.

Thank you. I agree that memory is central to the first-person sense of continuity within a life.

If all memory of being oneself were erased, then the resulting subject would no longer experience earlier events as “my past” in the ordinary psychological sense.

My proposal, however, does not depend on memory passing from one occurrence to another.

I am considering complete conscious histories that are internally identical, including the same memories at the same stages of the life.

In each occurrence, the subject would remember the same childhood, the same decisions and the same previous experiences.

So memory would explain why each occurrence experiences itself as one continuous life.

What I am still unsure about is whether memory also settles the question of numerical identity between two complete and identical histories.

If two histories contain exactly the same memory relations throughout, does that make them two distinct subjects, or does it only explain why each one experiences itself as the same subject over time?

In other words, memory may explain continuity within a life, but I am not sure it explains how we should count perfectly identical total lives.

I agree with you. I do not mean consciousness as an abstract program that could remain the same while the body changes or disappears.

My starting point is materialist and embodied: the conscious process includes the brain’s ongoing relation with the body — proprioception, hormonal and visceral signals, sensory input, movement and the subject’s position in the environment.

So if the same complete conscious history were to recur, it would not be enough for a similar brain to appear. The relevant bodily organization and the surrounding conditions would also have to be identical, at least insofar as they contribute to the experience.

In that sense, yes: the hypothesis would require the whole embodied process to recur, not a disembodied consciousness.

The biological instance would still end completely. My question concerns whether an exactly recurring total embodied history should be counted as a new conscious subject, or as the same complete conscious structure without a first or last occurrence.

Your objection also shows that my computer-program analogy is limited. A better description would be a whole organism–environment process, rather than software separable from its hardware.

Universe creates things in infinity means one cannot find any error or any other solution then given by universe, its because there’s no precise intellectual variety in it, rather then it has every intellect.
so your question also have an answer . The universe is trying to understand infinity, while we are the final holders because of the capacity of infinity in us. Its complex, though if i have to say, there’s no other conscious life planned by nature after every human dies. Though there’s a law in universe which says nothing cannot exist so a thing exists there always. Including this if someone dies he will see a thing, which in turn is described to be the heaven and hells, not another reincarnation or life because universe acts with everything done in a single time, no one knows how or why though there’s no answer to how or why too.

Excellent question. Not because I agree, but because it requires us to ask difficult and pertinent questions about self and continuity.

There is a theory (Bollzman Brains) that following the heat death of the Universe there will be an ongoing period in which virtual particles pop in and out of existence. These could possibly, given enough time randomly create a human consciousness

A theory referenced in the hitchhikers guide to the Universe ( a distraction just for fans)

I think I have a similar position to the OP.

While most people would see it as a “common sense” entailment of physicalism that once you’re dead, you’re dead, it actually doesn’t hold up.

Because both of the most popular conceptions of personal identity – bodily continuity and psychological continuity – entail some kind of resurrection / reincarnation is possible. It would actually be “magical thinking” if the self was something impossible to restore.

And of course for those who reject physicalism, all bets are off.

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Are quantum entangled atoms aware of each other ? Are we made up of quantum entangled parts ? Are two people who are the same entangled, what does that mean ?

If we share entangeled parts with others are they or we aware of it ?

Is basic consciousness the same for every one or do we even store memories in the part of the brain that’s responsible for consciousness ?

What can we say about two beings who are exactly the same, from what I know when this occurs, should they touch it can be catastrophic.

Does this help ?

This is a tricky subject, and we make unconsidered assumptions that incline us to begin our investigation of it from the wrong place. It’s instructive to begin by trying to be clear about how you are using the word – this is a process that often brings these unconsidered assumptions into the light so that they can be given their due consideration. Then the landscape may look very different.

I’m afraid I’m lost. This is not a thing which you consider actually could happen… but rather a thought experiment? In other words, I can’t see the mechanics of it. Two humans, instantiating the same body at the same time or something?

I don’t find the logic in that. Can you explain?
You see, I’ve been wearing an Oura Ring for a few months and it revealed sleep to be way more complex and active than I was capable of imagining.

Death is flatline, while sleep is a dynamic process.

What about our biological body?

Why isn’t that the starting point of such discussions?

Your brain is intimately connected to every cm of your body.
Your body is what is doing pretty near all the actually experiencing of this world and life. Why would it not be very active in forming your mind, that is your sense of self in the world?

I hear philosophers always going on about the brain, as if the body were an irrelevant bystander.

But then I hear brain experts such as Mark Solms presenting the clear message that science is showing us that ‘consciousness is best understood as a reflection of the inside of your body communicating with itself, while it is engaged with interior and exterior interactions.’

Senses + Body + Brain + interaction (interior & exterior) = awareness > sense of self > consciousness > introspection

The beauty about that formulation is that it makes clear that this is not all about us magnificent, exceptional children of “God”, it applies to all Earthly life forms, each according their kind.

What I have not been able to find in the above OP, dialogue, is the recognition that our body isn’t a discrete unit. Your body is the cumulative total of a half billion years worth of successfully evolving generations. 100% successful, not one hiccup in all that time or you would not be here. That is not just ‘you’ it applies to the entire kingdom of life.

The important logical message that I drawn from this is that our body possess layers of understanding, agendas, strategies beyond our introspective conscious awareness.

In practical life how that translated for me is to acknowledge that my body is smarter than I was/am, and in fact that my body has taken better care of me, than I did of it.
“I” being my conscious self (that I recognize is created by my evolved body interacting with the world).

So while my body is the reflect of the pageant of Earth’s evolution, literally half a billion years, or around four billion years if we consider my body’s many components. While my consciousness is the sum total of my lived experience.

When I die all that ends, and the real deep dark sleep with no end will enfold me. While my memory and pieces of my soul will live on in those who remember me, or who have been influenced by my various projects, whether they actually knew me or not.
As for my biology, I’ve been blessed with a child and grandchild. As for my memory that’s embedded into yet more children, grandchildren, families. (blood makes children, memories make families - both are of deep value to me.)

You don’t know if ‘flatline’ isn’t a lot of activity for the consciousness that previously fulfilled the human vessel.

Some would argue it is a lot of activity, more than sleep/dreams.

‘Flatline’, in this discussion, could be the point consciousness exited the vessel.

You have no evidence it isn’t a lot activity, you just pointed at the exit-point.

You assumed experience of such is similar to the machine’s reading of the dead-vessel.

I haven’t got evidence either, but I defend my point about sleep being relative of death.

I’m not following. The creature flatlines, then decomposition processes start, so sure there’s a lot of activity, but how is it relevant?

Then what does it do?

More fundamentally, what is the point of consciousness in the first place?
… and why would it have to continue after the creature that generated consciousness dies?


Yes, I assume the bodily monitoring instruments doctors use are reliable indicator of what our biology is doing.
Are you suggesting some mysterianism below the level of physical observation?

You lost me, evidence of what? The dynamic nature of sleep, even when our introspective-consciousness has taken a break?

Worth pointing out is that I don’t see consciousness as a thing, it is many layered product of biological activity that can be traced all the way down to singled creatures (that’s not conjecture that is observed and documented in the scientific literature), folds within folds of constructive harmonic complexity.