Thoughts about Friedrich Nietzsche and his work?

And yet, everything I mentioned on Eternal Recurrence was in terms of human psychology of the “I”.

Nietzsche’s 341 Heaviest Burden in Gay Science, The Vision and the Enigma in section XLVI Thus Spoke Zarathustra, on Character (That typical experience which always recurs) in 70 Beyond Good and Evil, and on the tyranny of drives that make up the rank order and pathos of distance of the Will to Power which is all throughout Will to Power but you can see it clearly explained in detail in the Theses section of 552.

All of which are detailed via Nietzsche’s Eternal Recurrence. Lemme put the numbers.

An important distinction. Do you connect this to what he says about masks? “Everything that is profound loves the mask” (BGE, Part ll, Aphorism 40) In other words, something is hiding within this story of revelation?

Do you mean a febrile vision?

There are a few places where he seems to contradict the claim of an eternal recurrence of the same. For example:

In telling of the riddle and vision he says: the like of which I had never seen before. If all of this has happened before then he has seen it before.

After biting off the head of the snake:

No longer shepherd, no longer human – a transformed, illuminated, laughing being! Never yet on earth had I heard a human being laugh as he laughed!

If all this happened before then he must have heard this laugh before.

He then asks if he has heard the howl of the dog before.

That’s kind of how you know it’s more of a thought experiment, rather than him taking it seriously that history the beginning of time starts back all over again. The question is, if all this have happened hitherto and all things shall happen heretofore then in the gateway of this moment … is there any action that can be considered a wrong action? Because whatever you choose was already determined. This is how the ancient Greek viewed time, which freed them from developing a bad conscience, but that’s another topic…

The bit about the Shepard … well here’s really what Nietzsche wants to stress:

Solve unto me the enigma that I then beheld, interpret unto me the vision of the lonesomest one!

For it was a vision and a foresight:—WHAT did I then behold in parable? And WHO is it that must come some day?

WHO is the shepherd into whose throat the serpent thus crawled? WHO is the man into whose throat all the heaviest and blackest will thus crawl?

Which has two correct answers, one answer is in the story which can be found through analysis of the prologue, and another when you’re capable of experiencing Zarathustra in the aesthetic state of the Dithyramb.

No, a Typus is like a typology the Noble type, the Decadent Type, the Superman type. We can see this from Ecce Homo Why I Am So Wise 1-3…

For, apart from the fact that I am a decadent, I am also the reverse of such a creature… This double thread of experiences, this means of access to two worlds that seem so far asunder, finds in every detail its counterpart in my own nature—I am my own complement: I have a “second” sight, as well as a first. And perhaps I also have a third sight. By the very nature of my origin I was allowed an outlook beyond all merely local, merely national and limited horizons; it required no effort on my part to be a “good European.”

Which if you want to clarify even further, thumb/scroll over to “The Friend” in Thus Spoke Zarathusra …

“One, is always too many about me”—thinketh the anchorite. “Always once one—that maketh two in the long run!” I and me are always too earnestly in conversation…

And compare that to this lovely lesser know poem by Nietzsche:

I forgot something, but the thought will come to me eventually… either way, thank you for the opportunity to express my own thoughts on the matter. The more practice the more adept I become being more effective with what I’m trying to say. :clinking_beer_mugs:

Thanks for your thoughtful answer. I don’t know what being “great” means and certainly have never worried about it.. I have no talent for philosophy in general, but it interests me what people believe and why.

Most people don’t until they accidentally stumble into it unwittingly.

Why, on the contrary, that interest already shows an inborn ability with philosophy. That you’re not worried about being substantial with the huffy puffy hocus pocus technicalities and systematized thought and highest vapors of smoke, well, perhaps that merely speaks to your own naturalism?

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There is another alternative, and perhaps more. Here as elsewhere there is a play on and inversion of strands of Christianity. Jesus is often called the Shepard. The serpent crawling into his mouth, the opposite of what comes out of his mouth. The logos.

Then there is Nietzsche’s description of what happened to him at Sils-Maria, which has a lot in common with Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus.

There is much more in this vein. What do you think he is up to?

It all plays into Nietzsche’s detailing of the Superman. If you want read WtP 999-1004, though, to be sure, I’d recommend more if we’re to wander that detour…

You’ll see Nietzsche says the Superman is the Lightning, while he details himself as a Herald of the Lightning in TSZ Prologue. And you can see in Ecce Homo he details that revelation is also the Lightning.

And furtherstill we can see that 999 - 1004 details he who is capable of the aesthetic state of communication in signs, and again he references the voice that speaks across millennium, similar to the Sybil and the Oracle. He details this of Jesus Christ too in AC 32 and 33…

From 32.

in primitive Christianity one finds only concepts of a Judaeo-Semitic character (—that of eating and drinking at the last supper belongs to this category—an idea which, like everything else Jewish, has been badly mauled by the church). But let us be careful not to see in all this anything more than symbolical language, semantics[6] an opportunity to speak in parables.

From 33.

In the whole psychology of the “Gospels” the concepts of guilt and punishment are lacking, and so is that of reward. “Sin,” which means anything that puts a distance between God and man, is abolished—this is precisely the “glad tidings.” Eternal bliss is not merely promised, nor is it bound up with conditions: it is conceived as the only reality—what remains consists merely of signs useful in speaking of it.

Granted Jesus was more of a Shepherd than a Beast of Prey, still a Free Spirit in his own Virgin Forest. An “Ubermenschlich” if you will.

A problem for creators:

Every creation of new values become old values to be overcome. This cycle repeats again and again. It is deeply troubling to think that what one holds to be of utmost, absolute, permanent, unchanging value is not.

One solution to this is to abandon the value of permanence. I think that there is another, one that Nietzsche saw: the creation of creators.

You’re thinking creation in some ex-nihilo fashion. But here’s what Nietzsche details of value creation, from his 260th passage in BGE on noble and slave morality:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification.

And you see, there’s something here that I want to point out, that so many many fail to see with Nietzsche, because they’re obsessed with the Platonic Ideal still so they want to be the “Higher-Type” so they fashion themselves in the manner of the noble MORALITY…

But we can find in Ecce Homo why that is such a bit of a blunder:

For, apart from the fact that I am a decadent, I am also the reverse of such a creature (Ecce Homo Wise 2)…This double thread of experiences, this means of access to two worlds that seem so far asunder, finds in every detail its counterpart in my own nature—I am my own complement: I have a “second” sight, as well as a first. And perhaps I also have a third sight. By the very nature of my origin I was allowed an outlook beyond all merely local, merely national and limited horizons; it required no effort on my part to be a “good European.” (Ecce Homo Wise 3)

The ideal is the falsification of reality (mMultiplicity and Becoming) into “Unity”&“Being”’ and it’s this conception that prevents reconciliation between the Types…because all morality imposes an OUGHT.

Incorrigible blockheads and clowns of “modern ideas” that they are, I feel much more profoundly at variance with them than with any one of their adversaries. They also wish to “improve” mankind, after their own fashion—that is to say, in their own image; against that which I stand for and desire, they would wage an implacable war, if only they understood it; the whole gang of them still believe in an “ideal.” … I am the first Immoralist. (Ecce Homo, Thoughts 2)

We can see above that Nietzsche’s an Immoralist, that is one the most important keys to understanding Nietzsche. And we can follow that bit from Nietzsche’s Ecce Homo in Fatality 3 to deepen the weight of Nietzsche’s immoralism:

People have never asked me as they should have done, what the name of Zarathustra precisely meant in my mouth, in the mouth of the first immoralist; for that which distinguishes this Persian from all others in the past is the very fact that he was the exact reverse of an immoralist. Zarathustra was the first to see in the struggle between good and evil the essential wheel in the working of things. The translation of morality into the realm of metaphysics, as force, cause, end-in-itself, is his work. But the very question suggests its own answer. Zarathustra created this most portentous of all errors,—morality; therefore he must be the first to expose it.

And no that doesn’t mean kill’em all but Ideals come in the manner of the antithesis of values… hence Nietzsche’s Beyond Good and Evil 2 & 24.

No. Quite the opposite. Creating creators is about self-overcoming, the revaluation of values, the movement through the three metamorphoses of the spirit, the Übermensch.

Nothing comes from nothing. Only a few can become creators.

Zarathustra says: “I teach you the Overman (Übermensch).” (prologue)

In the chapter on the Higher Man he addresses creators:

Ye creating ones, ye higher men! One is only pregnant with one’s own child. (11)

Ye higher men, the worst thing in you is that ye have none of you learned to dance as ye ought to dance—to dance beyond yourselves! What doth it matter that ye have failed!

How many things are still possible! So LEARN to laugh beyond yourselves! Lift up your hearts, ye good dancers, high! higher! And do not forget the good laughter!

This crown of the laughter, this rose-garland crown: to you my brethren do I cast this crown! Laughing have I consecrated; ye higher men, LEARN, I pray you—to laugh! (20)

Note on translation. I am away from my books and using online translations.

Added: Kaufmann online translation.

11: You creators, you higher men! One is pregnant only with one’s own child.

20: You higher men, the worst about you is that all of you have not learned to dance as one must dance-dancing away over yourselves! What does it matter that you are failures? How much is still possible! So learn to laugh away over yourselves! Lift up your hearts, you good dancers, high, higher! And do not forget good laughter. This crown of him who laughs, this rose-wreath crown: to you, my brothers, I throw this crown. Laughter I have pronounced holy; you higher men, learn to laugh!

Ah, so then like a moving goal post? “Creators were they who created a faith and hung it over a people to serve life.”

Always needing some new perspective to serve life. Like one has to overcome the dragon to even consider the superman properly, but even Zarathustra mentions the Superman will have his superdragons to overcome.

Even Nietzsche’s will be obsolete in time.

Apologies for the confusion, which lead to an assumption.

I have read Nietzsche for most of my life and am sceptical of anyone who claims to understand him.

Interesting. What is it you get from him and why are you skeptical.

I’m a huge fan of Gadamer, and in this context this means that there is a mostly coherent Nietzsche-as-I-appropriate-him, or Nietzsche-for-me, which we might call an “aspect” of Nietzsche.

With that disclaimer, I tend to think of him as a response to Schopenhauer. More exactly he is responding to a “vision of horror” that Schopenhauer disclosed for him. Consider this passage from an early work:

For we must know that in the rapture of the Dionysian state, with its annihilation of the ordinary bounds and limits of existence, there is a lethargic element, wherein all personal experiences of the past are submerged. It is by this gulf of oblivion that the everyday world and the world of Dionysian reality are separated from each other. But as soon as this everyday reality rises again in consciousness, it is felt as such, and nauseates us; an ascetic will-paralysing mood is the fruit of these states. In this sense the Dionysian man may be said to resemble Hamlet: both have for once seen into the true nature of things, —they have perceived, but they are loath to act; for their action cannot change the eternal nature of things; they regard it as shameful or ridiculous that one should require of them to set aright the time which is out of joint. Knowledge kills action, action requires the veil of illusion—it is this lesson which Hamlet teaches, and not the cheap wisdom of John-a-Dreams who from too much reflection, as it were from a surplus of possibilities, does not arrive at action at all. Not reflection, no!—true knowledge, insight into appalling truth, preponderates over all motives inciting to action, in Hamlet as well as in the Dionysian man. No comfort avails any longer; his longing goes beyond a world after death, beyond the gods themselves; existence with its glittering reflection in the gods, or in an immortal other world is abjured. In the consciousness of the truth he has perceived, man now sees everywhere only the awfulness or the absurdity of existence, he now understands the symbolism in the fate of Ophelia, he now discerns the wisdom of the sylvan god Silenus: and loathing seizes him.

In my view, he identifies with Hamlet, or with an aspect of Hamlet. Freud’s Hamlet is someone else, and so is Bloom’s. This sounds to me like some rapturous expansion of self followed by a nauseating return to the little practical ego and its now-petty self-preserving worries.

What is this “appalling truth” ? Unjust/absurd suffering that cannot be extinguished. A vivid sense that his own action is powerless to divert “the eternal nature of things.” Would killing Claudius achieve anything “substantial” ?

What is substantial ? Something that lasts forever ? But there’s a “factory” that will churn out a thousand more Claudius types, namely that insane/demonic will-to-live-by-consuming-to-replicate.

Is this a resentment of “finitude” in the sense of confinement to what is merely a passing show ? “For these are actions that a man might play / But I have that within that passes show.”

He’s also obsessed with masks and surfaces that conceal depths in later work.

In the writings of a recluse one always hears something of the echo of the wilderness, something of the murmuring tones and timid vigilance of solitude; in his strongest words, even in his cry itself, there sounds a new and more dangerous kind of silence, of concealment. He who has sat day and night, from year’s end to year’s end, alone with his soul in familiar discord and discourse, he who has become a cave-bear, or a treasure-seeker, or a treasure-guardian and dragon in his cave—it may be a labyrinth, but can also be a gold-mine—his ideas themselves eventually acquire a twilight-colour of their own, and an odour, as much of the depth as of the mould, something uncommunicative and repulsive, which blows chilly upon every passer-by. The recluse does not believe that a philosopher—supposing that a philosopher has always in the first place been a recluse—ever expressed his actual and ultimate opinions in books: are not books written precisely to hide what is in us?—indeed, he will doubt whether a philosopher CAN have “ultimate and actual” opinions at all; whether behind every cave in him there is not, and must necessarily be, a still deeper cave: an ampler, stranger, richer world beyond the surface, an abyss behind every bottom, beneath every “foundation.” Every philosophy is a foreground philosophy…Every deep thinker is more afraid of being understood than of being misunderstood.

Finally, much later, we get Jesus-for-Nietzsche, as earlier we had Hamlet-for-Nietzsche. These passages have long been some of my favorites in his work, as they try to say something from “behind language.”

What the “glad tidings” tell us is simply that there are no more contradictions; the kingdom of heaven belongs to children; the faith that is voiced here is no more an embattled faith—it is at hand, it has been from the beginning, it is a sort of recrudescent childishness of the spirit. …A faith of this sort is not furious, it does not denounce, it does not defend itself: it does not come with “the sword”—it does not realize how it will one day set man against man. It does not manifest itself either by miracles, or by rewards and promises, or by “scriptures”: it is itself, first and last, its own miracle, its own reward, its own promise, its own “kingdom of God.” This faith does not formulate itself—it simply lives, and so guards itself against formulae. …let us be careful not to see in all this anything more than symbolical language, semantics an opportunity to speak in parables. It is only on the theory that no work is to be taken literally that this anti-realist is able to speak at all. Set down among Hindus he would have made use of the concepts of Sankhya, and among Chinese he would have employed those of Lao-tse—and in neither case would it have made any difference to him.—With a little freedom in the use of words, one might actually call Jesus a “free spirit”—he cares nothing for what is established: the word killeth, whatever is established killeth. The idea of “life” as an experience, as he alone conceives it, stands opposed to his mind to every sort of word, formula, law, belief and dogma. He speaks only of inner things: “life” or “truth” or “light” is his word for the innermost—in his sight everything else, the whole of reality, all nature, even language, has significance only as sign, as allegory.—Here it is of paramount importance to be led into no error by the temptations lying in Christian, or rather ecclesiastical prejudices: such a symbolism par excellence stands outside all religion, all notions of worship, all history, all natural science, all worldly experience, all knowledge, all politics, all psychology, all books, all art—his “wisdom” is precisely a pure ignorance of all such things.

In the whole psychology of the “Gospels” the concepts of guilt and punishment are lacking, and so is that of reward. “Sin,” which means anything that puts a distance between God and man, is abolished—this is precisely the “glad tidings.” Eternal bliss is not merely promised, nor is it bound up with conditions: it is conceived as the only reality—what remains consists merely of signs useful in speaking of it.

If I understand anything at all about this great symbolist, it is this: that he regarded only subjective realities as realities, as “truths” —that he saw everything else, everything natural, temporal, spatial and historical, merely as signs, as materials for parables. The concept of “the Son of God” does not connote a concrete person in history, an isolated and definite individual, but an “eternal” fact, a psychological symbol set free from the concept of time.

The “kingdom of heaven” is a state of the heart—not something to come “beyond the world” or “after death.” The whole idea of natural death is absent from the Gospels: death is not a bridge, not a passing; it is absent because it belongs to a quite different, a merely apparent world, useful only as a symbol. The “hour of death” is not a Christian idea—“hours,” time, the physical life and its crises have no existence for the bearer of “glad tidings.”… The “kingdom of God” is not something that men wait for: it had no yesterday and no day after tomorrow, it is not going to come at a “millennium”—it is an experience of the heart, it is everywhere and it is nowhere…

If that’s a challenge, you can always ask some questions, otherwise what is yet another person’s skepticism in my abilities? Nothing new, I’ll tell you, nothing new.

That’s Nietzsche detailing the aesthetic state. Which he details of himself in BoT 2 as the Dithyrambic votary of Dionysus who speaks in signs and symbols.

The æsthetic state represents an overflow of means of communication as well as a condition of extreme sensibility to stimuli and signs. It is the zenith of communion and transmission between living creatures; it is the source of languages. In it, languages, whether of signs, sounds, or glances, have their birthplace. The richer phenomenon is always the beginning: our abilities are subtilised forms of richer abilities. But even to-day we still listen with our muscles, we even read with our muscles.

Which is of course directly linked to Heraclitus and Schiller both.

Which of course we can link to the Ubermensch once we understand words represent a multiplicity and becoming of that makes up “thinghood,” in terms of unity and being (BGE 19).

In Zarathustra Nietzsche details the Ubermensch as the Lightning to which he is the Herald thereof. In Ecce Homo Nietzsche details the psychological experience of inspiration to be the lightning. The Sybil and the Oracle at Delphi both spoke in revelations that men from all languages and nations sought the wisdom of.

Furtherstill both the Sybil and the Oracle live off the luxurious surplus of mankind, which Nietzsche details as the entire counter-movement againt the masses, and also as “the Superman.”

It is necessary to show that a counter-movement is inevitably associated with any increasingly economical consumption of men and mankind, and with an ever more closely involved “machinery” of interests and services. I call this counter-movement the separation of the luxurious surplus of mankind: by means of it a stronger kind, a higher type, must come to light, which has other conditions for its origin and for its maintenance than the average man. My concept, my metaphor for this type is, as you know, the word “Superman.”

Which would make Nietzsche, in part, a slave to a higher type, which is directly in the wording “Herald of the Lightning.” Because Nietzsche even had his master, he was not a “ni dieu ni maitre” type after all.

I feel Nietzsche’s writing style more clear than some of the other thinkers. There have been only a couple of writings of Nietzsche which were not clear in its contents.

One of them was “Thus spake Zarathustra”. I wonder if you read it, and fully understood it.

But for the interpretation works on any of the philosophical classic works, it is always inspiring to see more unusual and new perspective interpretations which are tuned into the current time we live in, rather than the run-of-the-mill bland and dull interpretations which sound unclear, too obvious or pointless.

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At the time of The Birth of Tragedy and his immersion into life at Tribschen, Wagner and Nietzsche were arguably disciples of Schopenhauer. It is a testament to Nietzsche that he was able to graft Dionysus and Apollo on to Schopenhauer’s World as Will and Representation (including the unique understanding of music therein) and then apply it to Greek theater in such as way as to explain the emergence of Greek tragedy. He did Schopenhaur proud.

So far, The Birth of Tragedy is my favorite Nietzsche publication. It was the first one I read and when I completed it I immediately started to read it again and then again after that. I read it three times in four days.

The more I read about Nietzsche the easier it is to understand his publications. At times he seems more fascinating as a person than as a philosopher.

I just completed Julian Young’s Friedrich Nietzsche - A Philosophical Biography.

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That is absolutely not a challenge. It was more or less a statement in support of your notion that a failure to understand Nietzsche is in and of itself understandable and should not cause one to doubt their own abilities.

And as for my scepticism in general regarding claims of understanding Nietzsche, it is well justified:

  1. the few that do understand Nietzsche are the first to concede he is difficult to understand;

  2. many who claim to understand Nietzsche but do not understand Nietzsche instantly transform into intellectual bullies when challenged. I remember one such person virtually screaming at me that “Nietzsche lives through me!” Fortunately, there were no horses near by; and

  3. most important, there is a good argument to be made that Nietzsche expected the number of people who would truly understand him would be few and far between. He oft said to the effect that he wrote for the few and the many. Of the many he expected to read him, he expected only a few would truly understand him.

If you consider yourself to be among the few, then I am happy for you as that alone must provide you a deep sense of satisfaction. I myself am among the few that read him over and over again in the hope of someday being among the few that truly understand him.

Perhaps you could arrange some sort of Nietzsche centered reading group. I would certainly be interested. Have you read Schopenhauer? He had a profound influence upon Nietzsche from start to finish.

Take care.

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