Necessary as in i do not believe that determinism is guaranteed to be how the universe works.
Would you not argue the universe being eternal is caused by its laws? How do you know there was no beginning? How do you know it didnt have a cause as a beginning?
I have given you the example random cases in the previous post. We can think of millions of random cases in the world.
I was just wondering what the point of determinist’s claims are, if they cannot explain the causes of the random events, and cannot predict the possible effects from the everyday events which take place by the simple exercises, when they claim every events are results of their causes.
Entail? I wouldn’t base an ontological theory on the definition of a word, but defining it this way is consistent with an initial state.
Either there is an infinite causal chain, or there is an uncaused first cause. That uncaused first cause is an initial state.
I reject an infinite past because it entails the completion of an infinite series of steps of finite duration, which seems impossible. Contrast with an infinite future: the concept implies an unending series of steps- never completing.
Regarding laws of nature: they would have to exist in the initial state, in their most fundamental form.
That would all depend on how ‘you’ define the ‘action’ word and what that word refers to, exactly.
To me, ‘choosing’ is far, far more likely to be a behavior rather than an action. But it would also depend on which situation exactly.
For example, if one is walking down a path and a snake slithers out in front of them, that one might ‘react’ and jump away and/or scream. Now, although some might say that ‘that one’ chose to jump and/or scream, I will suggest that ‘the body’ reacted, before any ‘considered choice’ could be made.
Although ‘the body’, visible matter, could have ‘chosen’ to react differently, ‘the invisible person’, within the visible body, I will suggest that it had no time to have made any other choice in how to ‘behave’ differently. This is because of what ‘that body’ has previously experienced has influenced ‘that person’ to be ‘the way’ they are.
But, to me, ‘choosing’ is a behavior, or misbehavior, which is sometimes not able to be done before ‘the body’ has ‘reacted’ to and in ‘a situation’.
‘Actions’ are the result of the ‘reaction’ between at least two prior things. But how you cannot predict what ‘will be chosen’ is because when ‘choices’ are decided, at a given moment, no one knows all of the circumstances hitherto ‘that moment’. ‘We’, personally, do not know what ‘we’ do in any given moment, for example, the so-called “trolley problem”, and ‘we’ certainly have no idea of another person’s past experiences, which would have created the limited choices that they have to ‘choose from’.
If this is what you have chosen to believe, then this is perfectly fine and okay with me.
Will you please provide some examples?
Just because some human beings who have the misnomer “determinist” might not be able to explain what caused all events at the moment this is being written in no way means that not all events lack causes.
At the moment, I cannot think of one event that does not have a cause. So, I am hoping you will provide some examples.
But EVERY event or EVERY thing has a cause, when to me anyway.
And, by the way, it was with the help of ‘free will’ I was able to recognise, understand, and know this, for sure and absolutely.
The point of its claims are to argue that there are no random events.
I believe you are thinking too literally, we ourselves can not perfectly predict these things. But determinism argues that they follow guaranteed patterns in a way that means that we would be able to predict them if we were smart enough
Yes it could be said that ‘the act of choosing’, or ‘the result of the enacted choice’ are ‘actions’, but to separate the difference between ‘a behavior’ and ‘an action’, I have chosen different definitions so as to not get things confused.
Now, it could be said that the ‘act of choosing’ is ‘an action’ or ‘a behavior’, and ‘the result of the enacted choice’ is also ‘an action’ or ‘a behavior’. It is ‘when’ ‘a choice’ is made and ‘the situation’, exactly, that ‘chooses’ or ‘decides’ if that ‘act of choosing’ is a behavior or an action/reaction. And, the ‘actual result’ of the ‘enacted choice’, again, ‘decides’ if ‘it’ is an action/reaction or a behavior/misbehavior.
(Already knowing how the Mind and the brain work, exactly, and what is irrefutably Right and Wrong, in Life, helps far better in fully understanding what I am saying and meaning here).
Yes, ‘actions’ are predictable, but ‘behavior’ is not necessarily so.
For example, although some might believe and say that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, but it can never be predicted when one ‘chooses’ to do things differently.
(Although ‘now’ that I have written this and am able to ‘look at’ it and consider it more, maybe it is not as impossible to know, for sure, when adults will change and so will start to make the Right ‘choices’ in Life.)
Anyway, ‘actions’ are predictable because they are just the ‘reaction’ from a previous ‘action’, which is just the result of two things that have come together and ‘reacted’. Which, by the way, is exactly HOW all things are ‘created’. They are ‘born’ in the ‘reaction’ of two things coming together.
Every action causes, or creates, a reaction, which is the result of a new creation.
Human beings’ behaviour or misbehavior comes from the ‘choices’ they make, or do not make. And, some people sometimes call these mis/behaviors re/actions. But, again, this has caused more confusion than necessary. When ‘free will’ is defined as the ability to choose, then ‘free will’ exists, but only in relation to the limited number of ‘things’ to choose from, which have all come from the body’s limited past experiences. Thinking about ‘this’ more deeply now, when ‘choices’ are made ‘freely’, or what could be called a ‘considered choice’, then this is what ALL mis/behavior comes from, and thus what ‘people’ could be what I would say ‘judged on’ here, but would never ever suggest anyone ‘judge’ absolutely anyone. Whereas, when ‘a choice’ has not had enough deliberation because ‘the body’ ‘reacted’ before a thought could even arise, then it could be said ‘that that reation’ is ‘an action’ and not a behavior or misbehavior.
But, then again, how a body re/acts is still dependent upon past experiences, and the ‘thoughts’ within that have already been gathered and collected.
To me, there are absolutely no random events I can think of. Can you share any proposed random events here?
It’s not about to get quantum. Haha.
I asked you four questions, and made other remarks, will you be more specific here.
Could you possibly quote what I said and/or asked you, and then you reply directly after that, if you would not like to be more specific as to what each sentence of yours is in reply to exactly?
I do not like to assume absolutely anything, and really do not want to start now.
Firstly, I do not even know what your first sentence is in relation to, exactly.
Secondly, I will suggest that if you were to really say everyone wears anything, or say and claim anything at all, without having first obtained the actual proof for it, then do not expect ‘your claim’ to be Right, nor Wrong.
And, what do you even mean by ‘finding’. ‘your claim’ here was certainly not ‘a finding’ at all, and only ‘a presumption or guess’.
What, exactly?
Instead of starting a new post by just writing something like, "No but ultimately it can’t be disruled’, “what I mean is that it seems to go against the premises made”, and then followed up with, “It also existed in the past no?” Without absolutely any reference at all, I would find it more helpful if you first mentioned what you are talking about and referring to exactly.
Also, answering ‘your own questions’ after it could have been mistaken that ‘you’ were asking ‘me’ a question, for clarification, is also not helpful at all to anyone.
Just to be ‘absolutely clear’, I have NEVER EVER thought “that something that cannot be experienced must not be true”, AT ALL.
Again, the Universe has always existed. And, since the One and only eternal and infinite Universe is always evolving, in Creation, then absolutely every thing is caused by the constantly-evolving-creation called the Univserse, Itself. Therefore, the HERE and the NOW it could be said are caused by the Universe, Itself.
Very simply and very easily, but you might have to understand the proof that the Universe is infinite first.
In the one and only way I know of - temporally.
But I do NOT.
Why do you believe I am denying the existence of the past?
you are claiming here that I am doing something that I am most certainly NOT.
Why are you claiming things about what I am meaning and doing that I am NOT?
If you say so.
But you did not make ‘a point’, let alone a so called ‘valid point’.
What you actually did was present ‘a question’ that was so far away from absolutely anything that I have even thought, let alone have said and meant absolutely anywhere, that it was nonsensical to me and not something that I could even begin to answer properly and Correctly.
Some people would say it was fallacy tactic to divert away from what I have actually said and actually meant.
That is because at the time you wrote what you did here you had;
Again, although ‘an action’ can be predicted and it can be said that ‘a choice’ is ‘an action’, can ‘what will be chosen’ be predicted?
If yes, to you, then what exact choice would you make in every “trolley problem” presented, to you?
And, could what you would choose when you read every “trolley problem example” be different if you were ‘really there’ in ‘each different scenario’?
Of course, human beings can only predict or ‘follow’ a sequence of events of visibly seen matter interacting with itself. But, can they/you predict or ‘follow’ a sequence of visible matter after ‘a choice’ is to be made by ‘you’, let alone another one?
Human beings, and you, can, for example, predict how far and at what angle a cannon ball will leave a cannon when fighting an “opposing army”, but can anyone predict what the “other side” will ‘choose’ to do next?
If you say so. However, as you have pointed out, the ‘act of choosing’ can be considered ‘an action’, which can be predicted, but can ‘what the choice will be’ be predicted?
By the way, ‘I’ can not and would not make anyone do anything.
I am not aware of anyone that believes or says that determinism is guaranteed of how the Universe works.
HOW the Universe actually works, however, is the Universe at the most fundamental level is made up of ‘space’ and ‘matter’. The space between and around matter allows matter to move around freely and interact with itself. This interaction causes the creation of all the labelled and known physical things. And, because ‘matter’ acts and reacts just like billiard balls to, in that they ‘touch’, ‘bump into’, and ‘bounce off of each other’, the ‘physical matter world’ of the Universe can be predicted, or in another way predetermined. How the Universe works, therefore, is determined.
However, what also exists are human beings who have what is called ‘free will’, which is sometimes referred and defined as the ability to choose. Having ‘this ability’ can make predicting and predeterming ‘what world’ will come to be created, but when one has learned, understands, and already knows how to ‘see’ things as they really are, predicting or knowing what ‘pre-determined world’ is coming is NOT that hard nor complex at all really.
Obviously, it would depend on the situation and circumstances.
The irrefutable Fact of WHAT the Universe is fundamentally made up of and HOW the Universe actually works shows with proof that there is NO beginning and that there was NO end.
Now, and as always, if anyone would like me to present the proof for them, then let us have an open, honest, logically reasoned discussion here.
And, because the proof shows otherwise.
I cannot logically go or argue against irrefutalbe proof and facts.
There is, and can only be, an infinite causal chain.
Due to WHAT the Universe consists of, and HOW the Universe works, the Universe can only ever be in One constant continual state of change.
Do you think it is wise to reject, based only on what ‘seems’ impossible, solely?
Do you here mean, ‘each step’ in an unending series of steps 'never completing ', or, the ‘unending series of steps’ ‘never completing’?
Why have you chosen to believe, absolutely, that there was a so-called “initial state”?
Also, would the ‘laws of nature’ have to exist always while ‘Nature’, the Univsere, exists?
Hmm, so does this mean that choice is more or less instinctive, not consciously considered?
Yes, indeed.
How about any ‘arguing’ that there are, or are not, ‘random events’, for those who believe and/or claim there are ‘random events’ just present them here so that we all can look at them and discuss them. To find out if they are really are ‘actual random events’ or are ‘events that just appear to be random’, instead?
Of course, human beings in the days when this is being can not perfectly predict all things.
Of course, matter follows a cause and effect, or action and reaction, path that could also be followed, that is; if one was that bored and could be bothered following for long enough. But, considering the ‘actual time frame’ and one human being’s lifetime or even humanity’s lifetime, how much could have actually be followed and had become perfectly predicted and known could be questioned itself.
In fact, considering how long human beings have been around for, and considering how old the earth is, let alone how long the Universe has existed, how much has been and is predicted and known could be considered quite Truly amazing.
If it is here, then this will only shine more light and reveal more Truths here.
No…
I already asked the possible causes for the 10 numbers on the 10 randomly selected cards from randomly shuffled 78 cards with 0 to 78 numbers on each cards.
What are the causes for the 10 numbers on the randomly selected cards from the randomly shuffled pile of the cards?
Under the explained causes, can you predict next 10 numbers on the 10 randomly selected cards?
My point was not about denying causes. My point was rather, the causes you bring up for the effects often don’t make sense.
Moreover, the causes are bound to change in scientific events on the later observations and findings. You read about the vaccines which were marvelous in saving lives because it worked great for the group of people they tested with the symptoms (the vaccines → cause, healthy folks → effect).
But then few month later, you read in the paper saying that, after the wider populous implementations, the poorly and perfunctorily tested vaccines killed so many healthy folks from the unexpected side effects due to the greed of the pharmaceutical companies for their profits having lobbied through the corrupt government for nationwide vaccination.
You can never tell which is the right cause amongst many possible causes, but you can still claim what you have chosen is the best cause amongst all other causes, but there is little possibility to be certain indeed which one is, or even is it the case.
Of course you can make out anything for possible causes for any event. Whenever you hear the next door dog barking, you also see raining outside, and you can claim whenever dog barks, it rains. Hence dog barking is the cause for raining. But does it make sense?
It just goes to show determinists claims sound like the medical sales men gabbing to try sell their pills to folks saying their pills will cure every illness under the sun. Or the cult religious members trying to recruit folks to their sectors saying their beliefs are the only truths. Not clever at all.
You need to read Russell and Carnap on this point.
What is the difference between creation and simulation?