I’m here today because I’ve reached a kind of crossroads in my life. I’ve recently been harshly reminded by the world (or by my bubble within it) that reality is far too complicated and unpredictable to match my expectations or demands. And that leads me to this fundamental question that I’ve asked myself a thousand times …
Imagine two people: Kevin and Sam.
Kevin is the idealistic (and naive) guy who still believes that if he works hard in his life and is honest in all his interactions with people, then he will be rewarded. And often, Kevin finds disappointment because reality doesn’t match his expectations. Sometimes, that disappointment turns into suffering and misery.
Sam, on the other hand, believes in taking the shortcut at any opportunity and taking advantage of others’ innocence or naivety comes naturally to him. He wants the best things in life without doing any real work to obtain it (other than researching the loopholes, shortcuts, and scam opportunities).
If it’s not obvious already, I’m the “Kevin” in this scenario. And I feel like a fool whenever I get these harsh reminders from the world. I’m constantly stressed because I expect that “reward” for doing the “right thing”. Sam, on the other hand, is living a permanent vacation of sorts - at least externally, he seems like the happiest guy on Earth, and I’d bet he sleeps real well at night. And Sam isn’t on any philosophy forums - he’s too busy having a good time in life.
If I’m Kevin, is it time for me to consider becoming Sam ? What is the deal here ? What is it that is actually “rewarding” in the long term ? Which of these two people would you rather be ?
Thanks for reading. I just feel totally lost today and had to voice this.
Reward and punishment are not altogether extrinsic. For example, human action is holistic, and therefore the way we treat others ends up being the way we treat ourselves. This means that Kevin will be honest with himself insofar as he is honest with others; he will possess self-knowledge; he will be able to recognize problems and try to work through solutions; he will write introspective posts on philosophy forums, etc. Sam, on the other hand, will end up being dishonest with himself insofar as he is dishonest with others; he will treat himself as a potential victim to be scammed; he will avoid diagnosing and solving personal problems and instead prefer distraction and fleeting pleasures, etc.
Or in Aristotle’s words, Kevin will enjoy his own company and Sam will detest his own company. Kevin will be able to live with himself. He will be able to look in the mirror. Sam will avoid himself via distraction.
Hi, and welcome to the forum. First, I have to say that there would not be any Sam or Kevin in an ideal system. Unfortunately, for this reason or other reasons, we are living in an unjust society. Some people are rich, and others are poor. Where does the money of rich people come from if you think thoroughly? They work the same amount of time, but their income is significantly higher than that of others. Saying all these, I try to answer your hard questions to the best I can.
That is not the only option, but it is a feasible one. Given the fact that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to change the current socio-economic system, we are left with the options to find our place in this unjust system. So, it is all up to you. The higher you go, the more people are under, but it is difficult to reach such a state, because everybody is trying to reach higher in such an unjust system.
The deal is that you either have to try to change the unjust system or find your place in it.
You will find the reward based on what you do. Either you try to change the system toward a just system, a system in which everybody can live a proper life in peace, or decide to find your place in the current system, read it as a jungle, and get your reward based on where you are in the hierarchy.
None, I am the one who likes to change the unjust system.
Both Kevin and Sam are children of a culture that, deep down, imprints on us the belief that the universe owes us something.
From that deep-seated attitude, stems this notion that life somehow is pliable. If we were to just find the right buttons to push and levers to pull, the world would bend to our desires.
In that vein, I suggest trying to stop thinking about the malleability of your life and start becoming who you are.
You feel like a sucker because your “Goodness” has been transactional. “Good behavior” warrants “reward”… right? And you’re pissed off the contract has been broken.
Stop thinking of your values as currency. Question them and keep the ones you feel you can make intrinsically yours.
Don’t live an honest life because it somehow buys you a smooth life… Opt for honesty because you want to stay true to who and what you are and truly embrace that shit. Because then, even while living in a world full of Sams, you still remain you.
Welcome to TPF, and welcome to that particular crossroads where we discover that reality refuses to match our expectations, again and again! Reality is the same for Kevin the naive idealist and Sam the ruthless opportunist. Sam actually has to work very hard, and is often frustrated in his various schemes and rackets. Sam may have more material rewards than Kevin does, but he also has to deal with vicious competitors who are worse than himself and may steal everything he has.
It doesn’t matter whether you are a naive idealist or a ruthless opportunist: reality is still going to be uncooperative. What is important is to be realistic enough to match your expectations to probable outcomes. Besides, “in reality” Kevin and Sam can’t become their opposite. We are who we are.
I have been an unrealistic naive idealist for 79 years and have lost many battles with reality. Had I figured out how to match my expectations with probable outcomes sooner, I would have been happier. Happier, but probably no more “successful” in life. I would have had less “sturm and drang”; I could have accomplished more good and spent less time spinning my wheels.
So why didn’t I match expectations with probable outcomes? REALITY again: we are who we are, hindsight is better than foresight, life is complicated, we (sometimes) get smarter as we get older, and so on.
You don’t have to give up your idealism to match expectations to reality. One of those “matches” is that doing the right thing, whatever that is, may go unrecognized and unrewarded, but it remains the right thing to do. (You’ve heard the expression, “No good dead goes unpunished?” That happens sometimes, too.)
Thank you, I’m beginning to see this … it’s almost like I know this is what is needed and it works for a little while, then complacency returns, and life slaps me in the face again, and it’s like an alarm clock - time to wake up These cycles.
That’s a nice perspective … it’s true, I am honest with myself both ways (+ves and -ves). But I feel like therein lies the suffering. Because it’s those who see things honestly that suffer the most (is that true ?). Double-edged sword ?
Thank you for the warm welcome. Yeah, I think finding one’s place is probably the best solution (and in some ways, I have … built a “safe” bubble). Another solution I’ve considered is just buying a remote cabin 100s of km from the nearest human, and I have no doubt I would survive and to some extent thrive, but I feel like I need to take on this challenge of dealing with the world.
I guess I am the total opposite of you in that regard - you feel compelled to engage in and change the system, my instinct is to run away or shield myself to the extent possible. Fight or flight
One should not expect this for two reasons. First, there is not a causal relation between doing what is right and being rewarded for it. Second, one should do what is right because they regard it right not because they expect to be rewarded.
Thank you, that is very true about the malleability of life (nice expression, BTW … reminds me of physics from high school).
The challenge is what you said - detaching the “being who you are” from the “reward” … especially when surrounded by Sams or people who are just better at navigating this shithole of a world.
During times in my life when I was more mindful, I used to tell myself that I’m an alien visiting a strange world … and that really helped me detach from the “reward” and just focus on the “experience”. But the challenge is complacency and “falling asleep”.
Thank you! I like your idea of matching expectations to “probable outcomes”. If I had done that earlier this week, I wouldn’t be in this mental mess right now. A part of my brain wanted to believe in the (optimistic) positive outcome and it proved wrong, over and over again, just within this one past week.
I think what you mean is to try to look at past data and unemotionally try to predict the future “probable outcome” - see what happened without an emotional bias and predict what will likely happen. And anchor to that outcome.
I like what you said about losing many battles with reality (and can relate to that). I would love to find out what some of those battles were, and maybe I can gain some wisdom from you. I imagine I would enjoy sitting down for a cold beer with you
Cold beer is an excellent aid in dealing with reality!
A recurrent battle was with the reality of the workplace. I kept expecting that work could/should/would be interesting and satisfying, and receive both monetary and personal rewards. More often than not, the work and the workplace were boring, stultifying and not very well rewarded in any sense. In a two jobs the work really was interesting and satisfying, at least for 3 or 4 years. The first interesting job was working with college students and faculty, the second was doing high risk AIDS outreach and education. In both of those jobs I eventually hit a ceiling where the work had become routinized and there was clearly no place else to go in the organization.
Had I been smart, I would have leveraged my skills and experience for a better job in another organization, rather than hanging around way past my sell-by date. The hindsight / foresight problem.
Another battle was where I belonged to a socialist party. My problem here was everybody’s problem: How do you convince people that socialism not only could work, but was working (in various ways) in a number of Western European countries, and was worth working for in the USA? We tried to collect a critical number of members for 30 years and only for one or two years in that time came close. Over 30 years, a few thousand people came to meetings, seemed to agreed that this was the best way to build a more humane society, and then we never saw them again. Eventually we all got too old, or died, or gave up and the party was dissolved.
I had more success in several projects in the gay community. Back in the 1970s, lots of gay men were coming out and were looking for ways to connect. Bars and bath houses worked for sex (which is important), but men were also interested in much wider cultural issues like connecting with religious organizations or participating in growth and discussion groups to better understand themselves and their community, and various other community projects. I worked with a religious organization, several growth groups, and a gay news paper. In both cases there was more success than in work or politics. (Why? Religious organizations tend to attract more idealists of some sort than cynical opportunists. Growth groups were small and self-selecting. There was a real need for community news. So… more success and fewer frustrations.)
The political and gay community activity were all volunteer. Success in volunteer activities didn’t compensate for crap at work.
It surprises me to encounter anyone today who believes that honesty is rewarded ipso facto. What does rewarded actually look like?
I think the best you can do in life is make choices based on what you believe to be right. If you are only working towards goals derived through shortcuts and deceptions, you will probably make mistakes for which you may pay a price.
But ultimately those who do well in life in terms of career and wealth are often those who are morally questionable; lying and deception can work pragmatically to get ahead. Conversely, I’ve also noticed that some people work so hard at deception and shortcuts that they might actually do better if they just got on with things appropriately.
It may not be a question of choosing which person to be but more a question of how to better orient yourself as Kevin. Perhaps it is more about being realistic, patient and tempering expectations. Many of us overthink things and strive for unrealistic goals. When I trained in counselling one of the mantras was, “the problem is not the problem”. In other words, what you think is problematic in your life may not be where the actual problem lies; it may be found in your approach, your expectations, behaviour, temperament, etc.
Why does Kevin need to be rewarded to work hard and be honest in their social interactions? Don’t answer. I don’t think it’s good to philosophize about this since this is clearly a post about your personal issues. You say so yourself that you are
from the disappointment. You use words like “right thing” and “reward” and “naivety”, but if you are truly suffering and are as miserable as you say you are, then these words surely have extensions that belong to your actual, personal life. That is to say, I think it’s of no help to philosophize with these vague terms until you give an actual example of what “reward” you expect for doing this “right thing” in your life, and in what sense people are “naive”. Do you, for example, think I would be naive for not wanting to take advantage of someone? If the goal is to talk philosophy or ethics, then fine. Go ahead and reply to me. But it doesn’t seem like you want to do that. Instead, it seems that you want to find a way to alleviate your “disappointment”, or your
And if that is truly the case, then I’d say to talk about this with a therapist, or friend/family, or a wise and older figure you have in your life.
If I misinterpreted your post, I apologize. Please let me know if I did. I have not read the thread yet, just the OP.
These cycles.