Telescope / Moon

Don’t take this as more than a razz, but…I’m glad that the self-crowned king of language is here to set us all straight.

More seriously, I suggest the priority is getting a strong sense of what the other person is trying to do. Pragmatics. I don’t always live up to this ideal myself. It’s not easy.

In our discussion of truth, I lost faith in our making further progress. People just can’t always get there. Or maybe not right away.

I mention again that I am not trying to speak the truth about truth.

In this thread also, I do not argue for the truth.

I am strongly influenced by Heidegger’s famous discussion of equipment. Harman calls this “tool-being.” To me this is intensely related to “meaning is use.” Walker Percy is basically on this page.

Others can do as they like, but I didn’t intended a “direct versus indirect” realism debate. But rather some more general. It includes language and meaning as much as perception.

I hear you. Labels only get us so far. But here is the IEP.

The indirect realist agrees that the coffee cup exists independently of me. However, through perception I do not directly engage with this cup; there is a perceptual intermediary that comes between it and me.

I am officially against this postulation of an intermediate entity. I don’t care how it’s labelled. I am not saying that such a postulation is “false.”

I am saying that I find it alienated from how we live.

This kind of “indirect realism” is of course like saying that we see the telescope and not the moon through the telescope. Which sort of misses the point and is sort of uselessly “literal.” And then “literal” is a dead metaphor anyway, and so on.

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The squeal of that monkey is not the eagle; it is a squeal. That much is apparent.

Since we agree that meaning is use, look to the use: it is an exhortation to behave as one would were there an eagle.

In beseeching us to look at use rather than meaning, Wittgenstein rejects the notion that the squeal must stand for something. Put simply, it has been successful if it elicits a behaviour, not because it has managed to stand in for the eagle.

That the Vervet sometimes pretends there is an eagle to get a morsel of food breaks the supposed causal chain, in that there is no eagle; the call cannot be the eagle if there isn’t one.

The hammering does not simply have knowledge about [urn] the hammer’s character as equipment, but it has appropriated this equipment in a way which could not possibly be more suitable. In dealings such as this, where something is put to use, our concern subordinates itself to the “in-order-to” which is constitutive for the equipment we are employing at the time; the less we just stare at the hammer-Thing, and the more we seize hold of it and use it, the more primordial does our relationship to it become, and the more unveiledly is it encountered as that which it is—as equipment.

source

The telescope as tool-in-use is the moon that is seen through it.

The eagle warning cry as tool-in-use is the looming eagle.

The pair of eyeglasses I wear as tool-in-use is the room I see “through” them.

This not not a claim about “objective reality.” I am saying that telescope user immersed in its has that telescope as the moon.

The vervet monkey who hears the warning cry in the typical way “has” that cry as the eagle somewhere up in the sky.

My pragmatic take on belief is that it is best understood as the directedness of expectant conduct in general.

Some of this expectant conduct involves the speaking or writing of words.

When I drive on the highway, my directedness is modified by the rear-view-mirror-in-use. I “live” the mirror as the cars behind me. Or perhaps the absence of cars behind.

Since this is phenomenology, I offer these words only as pointers. I enact the hope that others will find in their existence ( the world for them ) what I have found in mine.

Yes. I agree. The monkey reacts to the heard cry like a seen eagle.

I typically react to security camera footage as I would react to “direct” witnessing.

I do my belief. Only a tiny piece of this doing is verbal. Yet this tiny piece is sometimes quite important.

This cuts against what you say above. “Literally” in the sense of “alienated anti-pragmatic theorizing” we will all indeed presumably agree.

Think where this leads. “Literally” the crying monkey’s retina is battered with photons. So the eagle is never seen at all. We can follow this “literally” into a maze of confusion, making this or that piece of the equipmental nexus explicit. Theory is helplessly adrift if not grounded in giving a damn and non-verbal conduct.

Of course. Trivial. I am not talking about “objective reality theoretical identity.” I am pointing out how signs are “lived.” I don’t see my chains of signs as little containers of “universal thought stuff” that mirror or fail to mirror “reality from no point of view.” I am chucking flashcards to my fellow primates, trying to do something relatively unusual.

What I am discussing applies to that very discussion.

I don’t believe in “true reality.” I believe in the adjustment of directed-ness. I “misunderstood” in retrospect because things didn’t work out. I might call a former belief “false.” This sign “false” is innocent enough if it isn’t inflated. It’s like a flashing turn signal or a thumbs up.

Presumably you believe that everything you say here is true.

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That’s a bad presumption on your part. I don’t mean this in a rude way.

“True” is just a damned monkey noise. Not everyone is a dualist !

I see belief as the specificity of expectant visceral conduct. Verbalized belief is just a tiny part of that. I don’t believe in “pure inside thought stuff” that tries to “match” some “objective reality outside stuff.”

Is a friendly wave “true or false” ?

You are telling me, from my POV, that a friendly wave is “presumably true.” Or that my leaping out of the way of an oncoming car is “presumably true.”

Philosophy done well is analytic, as well as discursive. One can sidestep the analysis I’ve presented, talking instead about something else. It might be a rhetorical strategy; it might be that sometimes folk have too little in common, and so continue to talk past each other. Perhaps my comments on Austin were off-topic.

Your analysis of truth is wanting. You deny that there are any truths, while hiding the claim of truth you make for your own utterances. This is basic analytic stuff - to make any claim is to claim truth for this, and not for that.

It seems I’ve missed whatever your purpose was for this thread. It’ll be about direct and indirect realism anyway, since that is the way of the forums.

Cheers.

In indirect realists can be seen Plato’s Theory of Forms. The physical world is not the true, ultimate reality, but rather an imperfect, changing shadow of an eternal, unchanging realm of abstract ideals called Forms.

Or Kant argues that we do not experience things-in-themselves directly as they exist independently of us.

Daniel Dennett rejected indirect realism, saying it flawed and outdated. And I believe that to be closer to the truth.

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I have had problems seeing the problem in a painting I am working on before. A artist tricks is to hold it up to a mirror and look at it in reverse or even turn your back to it and look at it through a mirror. You will most likely see the reality of your mistakes right away. Where it might take days to see the problem just looking directly at it.

An indirect reality allowing me to see the reality.

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Right. So my point might be that any direct reality can be called “indirect” if we try to find an excuse to call it that.

As a sort-of-pragmatist, I think it helps to pay attention to what we care about. Words are tools. We aren’t just trying to say how it is. We are carving into how it is.

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Then there is a way that it is.

I agree with this. I’d even emphasize the case-by-case-ness, to the point of Bakhtin’s conception of dialogue.

This is the part that alienated me. We go from “case-by-case” ( good !) to the same static dualism ( bad ).

From my POV, you are just missing the point. It just depends on what we are up to whether it’s better to say “telescope” or “moon.”

Immersed in the tool’s function, we see beyond or through or with it. But sometimes we examine the telescope itself, perhaps to repair it. It’s this shift of thematic foregrounding that fascinates me. And it helps support what you paraphrase from Austin above.

Case-by-case. So every generalization is a fragile moment-bound dialogue-specific “act” on the shared situation. Not a grand metaphysical claim. The word “true” is like this, just a multi-purpose noise. I can’t say ahead of time what others will do with it. For me other people and the future are real.

You can guess what I’ll say here. We are animals sharing an environment, each from our own meat-perspective. I emit marks and noises to act on that environment, especially on others who recognize these marks and noises without necessarily using them the way that I do. I read the “great philosophers” to learn new ways to handle these marks and noises, new tricks to do with them.

The word “true” is a like a fork or a spoon. There are average “nice and cosy” ways of handling it and unexpected ways of handling it. Philosophers are creeps and weirdos who don’t talk right. Yet they are also often obsessed with The One Right Way To Talk.

You might want me to say that I must intend this as “True.” But you’d be missing my pragmatic/emotional rejection of the “One Right Way” framework. It is not — for me — The One Right Way to reject The One Right Way.

When a horse pisses, is this steaming piss asserted as “true” ?
Is a blinking turn signal a claim to truth ?
Why must a chain of marks be so ? Because “me and my friends usually do it that way” ?

As I see it, other people sometimes “project” what they “must” on my marks and noises. We are coming from different places and on the way to different places. The marks and noises are coins and roses on the path.

“He held out his hand and showed me two coins.”

“He stepped on a rose and then wore it in his hair.”

The weird bit is that that is exactly what both Austin and I said.

A post that summarised my writing on Austin, from here, apparently ran afoul of the rules. The absence leaves somewhat of a hole, so in its place, here is the origional, somewhat edited, copied as it was writ by me. The images did not carry over. The text was a step-by-step run through of Austin’s Sense and Sensibilia. First three lectures.

The relevance to telescopes is I hope clear.


I find myself re-reading Austin’s lecture notes as reconstructed by G. J Warnock. The result of a slow wet day and recent threads hereabouts.

The book is an extended and detailed remonstration against the view, so common as to be almost ubiquitous in these fora, that

p.2:…we never see or otherwise perceive (or ‘sense*’), or anyhow we never directly perceive or sense, material objects (or material things), but only sense-data (or our own ideas, impressions, sensa, sense-perceptions, percepts, &c.).

Several ongoing threads advocate this view, in various denominations.

Austin, of course, has been the butt of many jokes, the quintessential irrelevant Oxford Don, putting the anal back into analytic, and so on. He’s also a decorated war hero, and given the period in which he worked, a probable misogynist. A quick look at his book ngram shows continuous, perhaps even exponential, growth. Anecdotally there has been recent interest in sorting out Austin’s own views from those of his student, John Searle.

Anyway, it promises to be a wet week, and this thread might ease the tedium.

I wasn’t able to find a free PDF. If you have access to one, you might link it here.

I.

The first lecture is introductory, of course. Austin notes the tendency to back down on stronger versions of the doctrine - “Theres the bit where you say it and the bit where you take it back”.

Austin calls the doctrine “Scholastic”, ironic language coming from a man who obsessed over detail and dictionaries. But here we have the first of the critical tools of which he makes use; part of my plan for this thread is to draw explicit attention to these. Austin points out that philosophers are inclined to consider only a limited number of cases in their musings, to “oversimplification, schematization, and constant obsessive repetition of jejune ‘examples’. …our ordinary words are much subtler in their uses, and mark many more distinctions, than philosophers have realized”.

Yes, I am aware that I am guilty of this. The tool being advocated is the broad consideration of the full range of uses for the terms at hand. Ruminating on limited cases will lead to limited rumination…

Austin makes clear that his intent is not a defence of realism. In the terminology he uses, he is not advocating a preference for material things over sense-data; in the terminology used more recently, he is not defending realism against antirealism, but rejecting the very distinction between these two.

The reason is simple: “There is no one kind of thing that we perceive, but many different kinds” (p. 4, emphasis in original).

So there’s the argument of the text in outline.

II.

There’s a copy of Ayer’s Foundations at Foundations Of Empirical Knowledge : Ayer Alfred J. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive . In the section quoted Ayer is introducing the Argument from Illusion,

Some mirth has been found in Austin’s use of “the ordinary man” - as if such as he would have any idea… But notice that the contrast between philosophers and ordinary folk is borrowed from Ayer. Austin uses it to draw out the idea of ordinary language which is central to his approach. I’ll adopt “folk” by way of avoiding issues of gender.

The points against Ayer here are:

  1. It’s not the case that ordinary folk see themselves as always perceiving material objects; they see shadows and rainbows and such, and understand that these are different to pens and cigarettes; further, it is far from clear what a “material thing” might be, outside of a discussion of the sort being had here.
  2. it is not true that not seeing a material thing is equivalent to being deceived by one’s senses.
  3. There’s more than a hint that common folk are naïve in not being critical of the objects of their everyday perception.
  4. That there is not a place for doubt here, or at the very least, that if there is to be a place for doubt, it is not obvious.
  5. We don’t attribute truth and falsity to what we see, but to what we make of what we see. Further, and importantly, talk of deception only makes sense against a background in which we understand what it is like not to be deceived.

All these come together to show that seeing things is a far more complicated and indeed complex process than is supposed in Ayer’s text, and indeed in fairly simple accounts given elsewhere. Seeing a cup is not the same as seeing a rainbow or as seeing a shadow or a headless magician’s assistant on stage.

The use of “directly” in “seeing directly” takes its meaning in contrast to the meaning of “indirectly” in each case. Do you see the ship directly or through a periscope? Do you see the door directly or via a mirror? This is a standard critical tool for Austin, used elsewhere and later to show philosophical abuse of “real”.

In the spirit of taking on as wide a field of examples as possible, Austin draws attention to the examples being dominated by sight. What might it mean to hear something indirect? What sort of thing is an indirect smell? “For this reason alone there seems to be something badly wrong with the question, ‘do we perceive things indirectly or not?’”(p. 17)

Other examples follow. In the other direction, are we to say that we saw the guns indirectly if we see the flash of their firing? The cloud chamber example is perhaps dated, a more recent equivalent might be to ask if we saw the Higgs boson, or did we see signs of its passing? The cloud chamber is more direct… :wink:

Whatever our philosopher is doing in talking of “direct perception” is very different to what the rest of us might be doing. So much the worse when the philosopher is going to claim that something could never be perceived directly.

III

p.20:The primary purpose of the argument from illusion is to induce people to accept ‘sense-data’ as the proper and correct answer to the question of what they perceive on certain abnormal, exceptional occasions; but in fact it is usually followed up with another bit of argument intended to establish that they always perceive sense-data. Well, what is the argument?

Here he outlines the argument from illusion, hinting at the shenanigans he sees in its structure. Austin will show how Ayer has oversimplified, even misdiagnosed, the case for these abnormal instances, why we should reject ‘sense-data’ as a solution, and then that generalising to all perceptions is absurd.

Austin’s dissection is minute and thorough.

The three examples on the next page are central: A stick that appears bent in water because of refraction; A mirage; and a reflection in a mirror. I’ll give a bit of background on each.

The physics of the stick is straightforward.

Quoting Discourse
A stick or a pencil half immersed in water at an angle appears bent due to refraction of light at the air-water surface. Figure shows a straight stick AO whose lower portion BO is immersed in water. It appears to be bent at point B in the direction BI. A ray of light OC coming from the lower end O passes from water into air at C and gets refracted away from the normal in the direction CX.Another ray OD gets refracted in the direction DY. The two refracted ray CX and DY, when produced backward, appear to meet at point I, nearer to the water surface than O. Similarly each part of the immersed portion of the stick raised. As a result immersed portion of the stick appears to be bent when viewed at an angle from outside.

The mirage example is a bit unclear.

Ayer, p. 4:Thus, when a man sees a mirage in the desert, he is not thereby perceiving any material thing , for the oasis which he thinks he IS perceiving does not exist

Presumably the “thing” that is supposed not to exist is the body of water in which the tree appears to be reflected, not the tree, which does exist. This image shows a possible result:

The ship, of course, exists. Ayer’s example is not the best.

Mirror images are familiar, and well-understood.

Of course, the stuff in the mirror is “the wrong way around” - usually.

There’s no mystery here, all accepted physics, with a plain and clear explanation.

Ayer’s supposition is that in each case what we see is not a “real” material thing; there is no bent stick, no body of water, no person standing in the mirror, and hence we “must” conclude that in each case what we see is something else - what philosophers call a “sense datum”.

Some might now replace “sense datum” with “qualia”. Not quite the same, but Austin’s counterarguments may hold.

Austin points out that although we are supposedly looking at the Argument from Illusion; that there is a distinction between an illusion and a delusion, terms interchanged by Ayer; and that the examples given are not examples of illusions. “The argument trades on confusions at just this point” (p.22)

Here’s the familiar Müller-Lyer Illusion:

The two lines appear different lengths, but are the same.

Amusingly, the page from which I borrowed the image has this to say:

Quoting Zach Olsen
Here’s the thing: Even after we have measured the lines and found them to be equal and have had the neurological basis of the illusion explained to us, our conscious awareness still perceives one line to be shorter than the other. One can know that the two lines are the same length whilst at the same time experience them as different lengths.This has a serious effect on our conception of the nature of experience. The world around you is not the way you think it is.

Olsen’s conclusion is not quite right, but not quite wrong, either. We are, after all, aware of the Müller-Lyer Illusion, and after a point no longer surprised by it - one might say it becomes a part of the way we think. The Müller-Lyer Illusion is part of the world around you and part of what you think. Olsen’s conclusion, “the world around you is not the way you think it is”, is imprecise, as are similar views expressed already in this thread.

Delusions differ from illusions mainly in their being something amiss with the person who is deluded - they have delusions of grandeur, of persecution. We suffer from delusions, not so much from illusions… (p.23) In an illusion, nothing need be “conjured up”; we see the lines before us quite clearly. In a delusion, the grandeur or paranoia are the product of the sufferer. Something is wrong with the person who has delusions. But there is nothing wrong with you when you look at the Müller-Lyer Illusion; indeed, now you are aware of the illusion, you can take steps to prevent yourself being deceived, and even use your understanding to create novel illusions.

It is true that sometimes there is reason to doubt what you’re experiencing. I suppose that what is salient here is that sometimes folk doubt what they are experiencing without good reason. Austin is slowly and carefully showing why this is problematic.

What’s not true is that “we sometimes see things incorrectly; therefore, we never see them correctly”. The invalidity of this is apparently not obvious to many. Stove’s gem, the worst argument in the world, and so on.

Not everything you perceive is real… Austin is certainly not making any such claim. Sometimes we see things that are real. It does not follow that everything we see is real. Sometimes we see things that are not real. It does not follow that everything we see is not real.

I suppose “hallucination” is closer to “delusion” than to “illusion”, in that something is conjured up in both an hallucination and a delusion, but not so much in an illusion. Should Ayer have called his the “Argument from Hallucination”? That doesn’t carry the same rhetorical strength.

So is a mirage an illusion or a delusion? Ayer would have us suppose that we have conjured into existence a thing, a “sense data”, and hence that we are deluded, seeing the sense data where there is nothing. But it is clear from the explanations given above that what we see is a part of the sky, or a ship, appearing in an unexpected place. The problem, if there is one, is not within us, but in the way light is bent by layers of air at different temperatures. We don’t need the delusion of sense data to explain mirages.

When you look at yourself in the mirror, are you looking at an illusion? That is an odd use of words. Those are your eyes, that zit is on your nose; they are not illusory, and certainly not delusions. The coin, seen edge on, looks elliptical - that’s not an illusion, but just how a coin seen edge-on is supposed to look. The straight stick in water looks just how a straight stick in water should look - slightly bent. Just as in the Müller-Lyer Illusion we understand what is going on, our expectations are met.

Importantly, there are common cases where we miss-perceive, yet which are neither illusions nor delusions. Austin gives the example of a proofreader who sees “casual” as “causal”; not a delusion or illusion, but a simple misreading.

Austin uses Price to show a common feature of Arguments from Illusion; that they suppose there is something extra that is what is seen in each of these cases, in addition to the mirage, reflection, stick and so on; the argument is taken as proving that this additional aspect of perception is needed. I hope it is plain from the explanations given hereabouts that this need not be so. The explanations of each do not require sense data. In such situations we are not deluded.

The sting, when it comes, is pithy and simple.

So the argument goes that the stick is straight, but appears bent.

p.29: What is wrong, what is even faintly surprising, in the idea of a stick’s being straight but looking bent sometimes? Does anyone suppose that if something is straight, then it jolly well has to look straight at all times and in all circumstances?

And the answer here is simply that there is no problem with a straight stick that looks bent when partially immersed in water, not illusion, no delusion, nothing that needs explaining beyond the physics of optics mentioned earlier. And there certainly is no need to infer the existence of a novel entity to take on the part of being what we see when we look at a straight stick that appears bent when partially submerged, apart from and distinct from the stick.

And when you see yourself in a mirror, there is no need to invent a simulacrum to stand in for you. There is no illusion, no hallucination and no error. What you see is yourself, reflected in the mirror. Again, this is what mirrors do, and no further explanation is needed that replaces your reflection with anything immaterial.

And when you see a mirage, you need not infer the presence of a new thing, but understand instead that the light from things already there has been bent in odd ways. Of all the examples, this is the one Ayer deals with most poorly.

p.32:for though, as Ayer says above, 'it is convenient to give a name, to what he is experiencing, the fact is that it already has a name-a mirage. So there is no reason, let alone a necessity, to conclude that in these cases we need invoke sense data to explain what is going on.

Even less, then, to take the next step, and conclude with Ayer that in normal cases, what we see is sense data.

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Good to hear !

I regret that “blindly” approached your words as flying in some other direction.

I am reading your longer post below. Looks great !

I agree in spirit. We might say that there is usually no need. The mirror as “blind function” ( submerged tool ) “is” me. Because I am worried about that zit and counting on the mirror to update me on its status. But maybe later I am thinking about optics and I thematize the reflection. Or I am rearranging the room and worried about the placement of the mirror.

There is no “truth” of the matter, no “proper” approach. But this is not the truth of the matter either but a fugitive finite expression of an attitude or tendency toward this kind of situation.

Yes. And there’s also the story that the experienced world as a whole is generated by a brain within that experienced world.

This thesis is so nakedly incoherent, and yet it is seductive like a conspiracy theory.

Ah yes ! Hoffman loves this stuff. Here again I am amazed that people miss that one perception is “false” in relation to another perception, and not in relation to something “behind” perception.

So the issue is time. I can be shown that my perceptual judgment isn’t as stable in certain situations that might plausibly be explained in terms of the physiology of vision, etc.

I suggest that it’s helpful to understand “genuine” materiality as the “pragmatic.”

The oasis turns out to be just more dry sand. I counted on an “experience” that was “counted” as water. But things didn’t work out. This is plausibly the source of the “appearance/reality” framework in everyday life.

Also “a crooked stick looks straight when you pull it out of the water.”

Mach is great on this stuff.

A common and popular way of thinking and speaking is to contrast " appearance " with " reality." A pencil held in front of us in the air is seen by us as straight; dip it into the water, and we see it crooked. In the latter case we say that the pencil appears crooked, but is in reality straight. But what justifies us in declaring one fact rather than another to be the reality, and degrading the other to the level of appearance ? In both cases we have to do with facts which present us with different combinations of the elements, combinations which in the two cases are differently conditioned. Precisely because of its environment the pencil dipped in water is optically crooked; but it is tactually and metrically straight. An image in a concave or flat mirror is only visible, whereas under other and ordinary circumstances a tangible body as well corresponds to the visible image. A bright surface is brighter beside a dark surface than beside one brighter than itself. To be sure, our expectation is deceived when, not paying sufficient attention to the conditions, and substituting for one another different cases of the combination, we fall into the natural error of expecting what we are accustomed to, although the case may be an unusual one. The facts are not to blame for that. In these cases, to speak of " appearance " may have a practical meaning, but cannot have a scientific meaning. Similarly, the question which is often asked, whether the world is real or whether we merely dream it, is devoid of all scientific meaning. Even the wildest dream is a fact as much as any other. If our dreams were more regular, more connected, more stable, they would also have more practical importance for us. In our waking hours the relations of the elements to one another are immensely amplified in comparison with what they were in our dreams. We recognise the dream for what it is. When the process is reversed, the field of psychic vision is narrowed; the contrast is almost entirely lacking. Where there is no contrast, the distinction between dream and waking, between appearance and reality, is quite otiose and worthless.

I see “real” and “true” as signs that have proved themselves in practical life. In philosophy, I associate them with dualism and the bifurcation of both the world and the self, which tends to be incoherent. Because here we are trading signs, sharing worldly objects.

No matter how sharply we just look [Nur-nochhinsehen] at the ‘outward appearance’ [“Aussehen]” of Things in whatever form this takes, we cannot discover anything ready-to-hand. If we look at Things just ‘theoretically’, we can get along without understanding readiness-to-hand. But when we deal with them by using them and manipulating them, this activity is not a blind one; it has its own kind of sight, by which our manipulation is guided and from which it acquires its specific Thingly character.

More Heidegger of course.

The “Thingly character” of the telescope-as-moon might also be called its “blind function.” We “go blind” to the tool in order to use it all the more powerfully.

I hurry up the stairs to answer the phone. I don’t even see the stairs.

As a member of the juror I push for “guilty” because I stared at some security camera footage. The “blind function” of that footage is to reveal an event as if I saw it with my own eyes. The footage “functions” as seeing it myself.

This is not about whether I should trust the staircase or the telescope or the footage. I am just pointing out that we often do “go blind” to objects this way, precisely in order to use them effectively.

A boy may cry wolf. A conman may “play on” the system in place. But there is a system in place to play on.

As I see it, I am just trying to point out a basic feature of life in the world that may clash with the prejudices of the “literal” theorist.