Quantum True Randomness Implies Reality Can’t Be a Computer Simulation

Correct, Bell’s Theorem demonstrated that local hidden variables theories aren’t acceptable.

However, Bell’s Theorem demonstrates that non-local hidden variables theories are acceptable.

Bell was aware of, and had studied, David Bohm’s interpretation of the quantum world, was sympathetic to it, and showed that it’s feasible.

Bohm’s mechanics is based on non-local hidden variables, is deterministic, and makes exactly the same mathematical predictions as non-deterministic interpretations such as those that feature wave function collapse. There is no collapse of the wave function in Bohm’s mechanics (nor is there in other feasible interpretations). Bohmian Mechanics has never been falsified.

People confuse a particular interpretation of quantum phenomenon with reality. No experiment has established that the quantum world is random, not deterministic.

Bohm’s non-local hidden variables theory is a theory of this universe, not other possible universes.

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While I don’t think we live in a computer simulation, it’s also not a strong move to base your argument on the claim that nature is truly random, since someone can simply reject that premise.

Quantum mechanics is not established as “proven true randomness.” I’m not sure where that claim is coming from, and the examples you put in parentheses don’t really support it.

Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle

“Uncertainty” is about knowledge, which is epistemic, not necessarily about what exists. It doesn’t automatically imply anything ontological. For instance, imagine a qubit that carries only one bit of information but can be measured along three different axes. Changing the orientation of the measurement device could be understood as perturbing that bit. In that case, you cannot measure X, Y, and Z simultaneously because the system does not actually have three independent degrees of freedom at once. If those perturbations behaved chaotically rather than fundamentally randomly, you would still recover the same statistical results.

wave packet reduction

Take the quantum state and apply a polar decomposition. This splits it into two real-valued vectors, which you can then express in polar form. One becomes a probability distribution, and the other a set of phases. When you make a measurement, you can perform a Bayesian update on the probability vector using Bayes’ theorem, just like in a classical probabilistic system. Afterward, convert back to Cartesian form and recombine into a complex vector. The result is equivalent to what you would get from wavefunction collapse.

Wavefunction collapse only seems strange if you assume value indefiniteness, meaning you deny that systems have definite properties when unobserved. If you instead keep object permanence, then collapse can be understood as updating your knowledge about a configuration that already existed prior to measurement.

Bell’s inequality violations…the experimentally proven violation of Bell’s inequalities directly proves that there cannot exist any hidden determinism

You might want to look at Bell’s paper “On the Impossible Pilot Wave,” where he discusses a fully deterministic model first proposed by de Broglie in 1927 that reproduces all predictions of quantum mechanics. He presents it as a counterexample to the claim that quantum mechanics must be inherently random or value indefinite.

Bell did not see his theorem as disproving determinism. In fact, his work was motivated by examining deterministic models. In 1964, alongside “On the Einstein Podolsky Rosen Paradox,” he also published “On the Problem of Hidden Variables in Quantum Mechanics,” where he criticized von Neumann’s argument against hidden variables.

Bell’s goal was broader. He aimed to show that combining object permanence, locality, and the predictions of quantum mechanics leads to a contradiction. Importantly, he did not assume determinism. When he referred to “hidden variables,” he was not talking about extra parameters added to restore determinism, but rather the idea that particles possess definite properties even when unobserved.

For example, if you measure particle positions and observe statistical distributions, the “hidden variable” in Bell’s sense is simply the actual position of the particle. These are not exotic unseen parameters, but the very outcomes you observe when measurements occur.

“The usual nomenclature, hidden variables, is most unfortunate. Pragmatically minded people can well ask why bother about hidden entities that have no effect on anything? Of course, every time a scintillation occurs on screen, every time an observation yields one thing rather than another, the value of a hidden variable is revealed.”

— John Bell, “Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen experiments”

“That [the actual position of the particle] rather than ψ is historically called a ‘hidden’ variable is a piece of historical silliness.”

— John Bell, “On the Impossible Pilot Wave”

So Bell’s theorem is not about ruling out determinism. It is about the incompatibility of locality with the combination of realism and quantum predictions. Bell himself leaned toward keeping realism and abandoning locality. The idea of rejecting object permanence was not something he seriously entertained.

If you read his conclusions, the takeaway is not that hidden variables are impossible, but that any such theory cannot be Lorentz invariant. In other words, it must be nonlocal. Others have later pointed out that anything explained through non-locality can be equally explained through non-temporality instead. However, non-temporality is still not Lorentz invariant.

You already accept nonlocality as a premise. Once you do that, there is no longer a clear argument against determinism, because there are explicit counterexamples like Bohmian mechanics that reproduce quantum predictions within a nonlocal deterministic framework.

The position that denies hidden variables tends to come from trying to preserve locality at all costs. But in doing so, it gives up more than determinism, it gives up realism itself. There is an old saying, “reality doesn’t exist, but thank God it is local!”

If locality is already off the table, there is no need to go that far. You can still argue that a fundamentally random interpretation is simpler or more practical, and that we lack evidence for deterministic alternatives. But that is a preference, not a proof.

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Anton Zeilinger has shown to 3-sigma that randomness is the bedrock of reality.

Oh, poor me! If only I had known, I would never have used the expression “true randomness.” It is exactly like entering a discussion about God: the moment you pronounce the nonsense word, you are trapped in an infinite loop of nonsensical arguing.

  • I will try one last time to state the obvious: “true randomness” means absolutely nothing. Only randomness exists. Simulated randomness is not randomness; it is an algorithm. Claiming that natural quantum randomness is algorithmic is an imagination born from a cataclysmic epistemological confusion. It is exactly the same as saying a supernatural will created physical reality—it is saying “God” created reality. “God” is just a teaspoon orbiting the sun right alongside “true randomness.” As I explained, this imagination arises naturally from the faulty [Nature-Human] thinking framework. Because human nature cannot be linked to Nature within this framework and remains a complete mystery, it is projected “as is” onto Nature: an algorithm is projected onto physical natural non-human reality. This is literally a shamanic explanation of reality, except that the word “algorithm” has replaced the word “spirit.” But I know, you will have infinite objections. Fine.

  • As PoeticUniverse recalled: randomness is the very bedrock of quantum mechanics. QM started from randomness with the discovery that the infinite precision of differential equations simply stopped at a certain Planck level, where intrinsic randomness rules.

  • Please, oh please: if anyone else here sees the obvious, please say it! Save the metaphysician soldat MCogito from this mess. :wink:

Not exactly. It disproves a specific flavour of determinism called “local hidden variables”, but there are many interpretations of quantum mechanics, some of them deterministic and still not ruled out by the Bell tests.

I see you’ve already brought up one interpretation of QM that is deterministic yet compatible with the Bell tests. Another is many worlds of course.

I did a topic on this 2 years ago. Didn’t know Clalmers was on this bandwagon. I know Bostrom does not posit the ‘alien species’. It’s done by us, something he calls a historical simulation, something nobody would find a reason to run even given hardware capable of the task.
I pretty much deny the claim, but I don’t think it should make a person ‘catatonic with terror’.

Thing is, if ‘all is a simulation’, we have no actual idea of the nature or capability of the thing doing it. Calling it ‘alien’ is already presuming too much.

I don’t think any of those mentioned suggest this. Idealism is everything supervening on mind. The SIM thing is us supervening on physics, and the physics supervening on some higher-level tech, which is essentially a deity, and wrong for all the same reasons. SIM also presumes presentism, for which there is no evidence.

It can if you have hardware capable of it. I mean, inertial acceleration cannot be coded either, except by chips that can. We know nothing of the rules of the realm running this supposed simulation, so it is invalid to make such assertions of lack of capability.
Secondly, there is no proof that true randomness is going on anywhere. In the end, one cannot distinguish true randomness from good pseudo-randomness, as @T_Clark points out.
Now you claim otherwise, that true randomness is proven. Like to see that, especially since there are multiple quantum interpretations that are entirely deterministic, with no randomness going on at all.
Even so, if it exists, it can be coded, just not with a Z80 instruction set. You need a RND instruction is all, and hardware that does it, as you suggest in your OP.

Again, this seems not to follow. Please demonstrate me wrong.

I’ve not read the book. No idea what ‘facing the void’ means or why it’s scary.

No. No idea what ‘hidden determinism’ even means. There are valid ontic deterministic interpretations and valid ones with randomness. The epistemic interpretation don’t count, concluding only ‘not known’.
Bell has nothing to do with that. Bell’s inequalities and the recent experiments that demonstrated what Bell indicated needed to be demonstrated, just shows that the universe is not locally real. A simulation would probably constitute the universe being real (actually having a state at a given time), and so locality goes away, meaning retrocausality is legal. The simulation hypothesis recognizes the implausibility of actually simulating that, so it instead simulates classical anthropocentric physics, meaning QM only does its funny stuff when we look close. Physcs for scientists is different than the simpler physics for real life. This is Bostrom responding to the exact issues that you are pointing out.

@T_Clark has also pointed out the above. All you have to simulate is what I’m paying attention to. This would be a tight simulation of one person, a solipsistic simulation instead of everybody. Such a simulation cannot stack (run simulations of their own) as Bostrom suggests.

Incorrect. Hidden variable interpretations are still valid (e.g. DBB). Just none of them are local is all. @torbill has pointed this out.

Pretty hard to imagine any tech capable of simulating that. Inability to imagine X is hardly proof of ~X though.

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You can toss/roll a coin/die and record the results.

sure. the chaos equations of your system will loopback to initial condition down to quantum randomness i.e. to the no code definition or Reality.

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@MCogito

It’s quite a good argument. I’ve played a lot of video games and nothing in my experience contradicts what you’ve laid out on the table. :wink:

thanks. Quantum randomness is the intrinsic variability underlying any forthcoming coded variability : unknown quantum code of Matter I’m currently working on, DNA for life, human language for Thought, code ribbon of Turing machines aka computer for Data.

Reality as Totality =
[ non-being [ being ]] =
[ non-coded [ coded ]] =
[ quanta [ matter [ life [ thought [ data ]]]]]
simple.

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@MCogito

Good luck.

The premise of the argument (“true” randomness) is reasonable enough. Quantum randomness was deeply troubling to Einstein (God doesn’t play dice with the world). His weltanschauung, founded on GR, seems to have favored a fully deterministic block universe which leads to the bizarre conclusion (???) that we’re merely passive observers of events instead of active participants who create reality.

John Stuart Bell (re Bell’s inequality) did rule out hidden variables on pain of non-locality but I’m told he had to admit super-determinism as a possibility. I haven’t been following the science news so I might be out-of-date on this topic.

Are you aware of how “true” randomness is injected into a Turing computer? Last I checked background noise was a good source for a random seed, also radioactive decay.

well I do metaphysics, I logically close the Totality, I wrote some 1=1, I talk about that because randomness=non codable and in my system Being=“coded somewhere”. The fact that the bottom of reality, quantum realm, is ramdom-based allow me to write Totality = non-being + being = non codable + codable. 1=1

On locality: the cost to pay for allowing determinism at the global level is much higher than simply allowing quantum randomness to be true, for example the insane Erveret multiverse spliting on each plank-size decoherence. This is not metaphysical for me, just stupid infinite closure.

About randomness in computer: it’s just alogorithm’s problematic. No metaphysical interest.

@MCogito

Moritz Schlick’s logical positivism and Aristotelian after-physics should both find a place in your heart then. I’m bad for both.

I like the way you so fluidly transition from staidly formalism to playful informalism. I don’t wish I could do that but it definitely looks good on you.

@MCogito

Two main mistakes in your reasoning:

  1. Quantum mechanics is provably unpredictable but not provably random. Non-local hidden variables have not yet been ruled out.
  2. A computer simulation can make use of quantum measurements to allow for unpredictable results. See CURBy.