Is the Mind Cause or Consequence?

You picked up on that. With justification I might add.

But scientists aren’t given license to do it, and have a gauntlet of rules to traverse that keep them in check, whereas it seems woven into the philosophical mindset (considering the outlandish stuff that gets all the attention - and the important stuff that’s gotten ignored these past decades of a radically changing Earthly reality). :frowning:

Well maybe it deserves a little more thought, that is consideration, deep reflection, and such.

You sound like a person who looks around and sees a splendid world, and a job well done, same as it ever was. Guess I’m looking at something rather different happening here on our miracle planet Earth.

No denying that does tint the lens I view our world through. I beg your indulance.

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Really? In reality, I’m someone who looks out on our world with despair, unable to comprehend how we continue to destroy our home, and all the other living things we share (?!!) it with. :sad_but_relieved_face:

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I think consciousness works differently through a human form than through a blade of grass or a rock or a planet.

The situation is interesting because it seems a rarity, is very scary and in humans, produces a wide spectrum of reactions, not all which are aligned.

I watched a video once - involving the interactions between mycelium, leaf cutter ants and the trees the leaves were being cut from - and as a conscious being I could identify immediately consciousness involved in those processes between those organisms.
What I couldn’t tell by looking though, was if those three things were independently conscious or whether an overall consciousness was behind the phenomena. In other words - “is the planet itself conscious?” - and if so - is that the reason for the life on earth phenomena?

I’m not claiming in this OP that inanimate objects are conscious. I’m working with the idea that consciousness only begins to manifest through organic life. Still, it’s something of an open question. This video has some very interesting things to say on it.

This is a cornerstone of my personal religious beliefs, so I would say yes, the planet is conscious. But then we would quickly become mired in chaos as we tried to describe or define what we meant by “conscious”.

That seems to be the core of discussions like this one: what is consciousness, or mind, or truth, or gravity… There are so many concepts, significant ones, that we think we understand. But when we look closely, it seems we do not…

This is a cornerstone of my personal religious beliefs, so I would say yes, the planet is conscious.

But why would we say “yes” is the question and with that, how do we go about connecting with and communicating with said entity?

But then we would quickly become mired in chaos as we tried to describe or define what we meant by “conscious”.

Why so? My understanding thus far is that being conscious is being self aware - but that is just the beginning. Consciousness in form is able to show it is conscious through its actions. THat is why when people talk about rocks being conscious or not, we tend to say “no” - not because it really isn’t, but because we do not see or recognise anything about a rock which might tell us for sure either way.
We cannot say the same for this planet though…even though it is also very much rock.

That seems to be the core of discussions like this one: what is consciousness, or mind, or truth, or gravity… There are so many concepts, significant ones, that we think we understand. But when we look closely, it seems we do not…

That depends on how we are looking…and what we are looking closely at…

For me, THe first thing to establish is how I self identify. Am I conscious? If so, what am I?

@Jay, I’d like to revisit your thoughtful clarifying post at #548

Isn’t that about the same as saying “get inside the conscious experience of another.”

I don’t see the distinction.

I refer to experience.
This " “objective” subjectivity " is a different topic to me, ironically it gets us to the heart of the Physical Reality ~ Human Mind divide. But that’s for another place.

Well that get’s us back to our dawning biological scientific realization that “consciousness” ( even if only chemotaxis during the beginning, though it started changing in a hurry.). Awareness of self & exterior world (…not to be mistaken with introspection.) is being shown to be a component of life, everywhere scientists have conducted a disciplined search for it.
See, Reber, Lane, Solms, among many others.

I don’t understand that puzzle, of course, here I’m informed by my lived experience, no academic training, just some eavesdropping now and then. So, I looked it up and came up with:

“the ongoing debate over how our internal, mind-dependent experiences relate to an external, mind-independent reality.”

I don’t see what modern science is missing there. Sure it’s not complete or perfect, but it’s a very good working model, internally self-consistent to an amazing degree and worth treating as real and incorporating into philosophical musings.

@Jay, Can you explain what I’m not seeing?

I’ll try, and I appreciate your openness to seeing new aspects here. Back in a few hours . . .

As to the first part of your question, we are born connected. And the second part is best answered, I think, with another question: why would we (want to) do that?

[quote=“PatternChaser, post:572, topic:1277”]

As to the first part of your question, we are born connected.

In what sense? Like we are born connected to our parents, siblings, general population?

And the second part is best answered, I think, with another question: why would we (want to) do that?

To understand more fully what the connection means - what purpose there is in it…

There isn’t one. The distinction I’m making is between “say anything about it” and “share our experience of being conscious.” You’ve drawn a hard line, claiming that we must either inhabit another’s consciousness or stand mute on the entire topic. For the reasons I give, I don’t think that’s right.

I know there’s good research being done on the topic. But I hope you’d agree that saying “awareness of self & exterior world . . . is being shown to be a component of life” is not exactly news. Of course it’s a component of life, or at least of animal life. The question posed by the Hard Problem is how does it come about, and why? (Note that the “why” question needs more than a teleological or evolutionary interpretation. We can’t simply say “Because it helps a species flourish.” That’s no doubt true, but the Hard Problem is about a causal explanation: Why does a particular concatenation of molecules/neurons/brain cells/ produce or accompany consciousness?)

In truth, there’s no single “objectivity/subjectivity puzzle.” If you look into the philosophical literature, you’ll find an array of questions spanning hundreds of years. What I meant to refer to is this: With consciousness, we appear to be faced with two radically different ways of describing the phenomenon. There’s the physical, brain-based description, currently just a sketch but in principle possible. And there’s the subjective, phenomenological description, which is utterly different from talk of neurons. How should we understand these two levels of description? Is one more basic than the other?

Many philosophers and scientists associate “objectivity” with the first attempt at description. Scientific inquiry uses shareable data and is always open to falsification and revision. On this construal, what you and I experience about our individual consciousnesses can never provide objective knowledge. Moreover, that very subjectivity can never be studied objectively. But this seems intolerable: What could be more basic to being alive than subjectivity? How can it be ruled out as an object of inquiry?

So there’s a problem setting it up this way, and allowing objectivity to be a stand-in for “real knowledge.” That’s why I noted that, while a scientific account of how consciousness originates may help us understand why “subjective” and “objective” now seem like irreconcilable opposites, I think the problem may remain. A question that likely wouldn’t be answered by such an account: Does our subjective experience produce knowledge? If so, what sort?

EDIT: I’m not happy with my final questions about knowledge, but I’ll leave them. Perhaps a better question: When we understand how and why consciousness comes to be, will we also understand the difference between subjective and objective as a difference of description rather than ontology?

That is the charge I am laying at the feet of Chalmers’ Hard Problem crowd.
(others tell me I’m wrong about that, but no one has been able to demonstrate where I’m wrong.)

I myself believe we can learn and know plenty about consciousness by observing others, and reflecting on our own.

Indeed, and my complaint is, why the heck aren’t we discussing it more explicitly?

Instead we have professional philosophers marching around preaching that science needs to take on mysterianism in order to make sense out of consciousness. It’s utterly disconnected from physical reality and Earth’s evolutionary reality.

You mean pointing out that survival is impossible without an awareness of self, and a drive to thrive, even intentionality. Even if driven by chemotaxis in the simplest cells, it is still what made survival possible.

Because it had a bazillion chances at refining the process. Until the right stuff came to be. That’s where evolution and deep-time take on amazing explanatory powers - that most choose to ignore for personal reasons that are beyond me.

I don’t see how you arrived at that. Why don’t you think engaged neurons could be transmitting, while also broadcasting signals? (Volume transmission spill-over, Astrocyte/glial involvement — the “tripartite synapse”, Ephaptic coupling, Field potentials themselves)

I don’t pretend to know what that stuff is about, beyond seeing it as evidence that our body is way ahead of the game, and that our understanding is playing catch up - that is way under appreciated.

And I don’t think that known biology supports such an interpretation,
Because it takes no account of scientists’ modern appreciation for the complexity and multifaceted nature of inner body communication networks.

Well don’t blame science for that attitude.

Which is why I make such a big deal out the
“Physical Reality ~ Human Mind divide” observation because I believe it offers a touchstone to sensibly divide the subjective from the objective.

How could it not? Start remembering subjective experiences and learning seems inevitable. Or?

Taking a step back . . . I think what separates our understandings of the consciousness problem is that you have faith that a formula like “modern appreciation for the complexity and multifaceted nature of inner body communication networks” is sort of explanatory, or will be, whereas I don’t. Likewise, you’re not puzzled by how neurons can transmit information, as opposed to signals or stimuli, whereas I am. (How are pulses interpreted as information, and what entity does the interpreting?)

An analogy might be this: We can learn vast amounts about the book publishing industry – how books are printed, how paper is made, the history of it all, better and worse ways to produce books, etc. etc. But none of that can explain how a book can be read. For that, you need to talk about how words symbolize ideas or concepts. The “hardware,” by itself, can’t tell us that, no matter how complete our understanding of it.

So with the consciousness problem. The crucial missing piece is, how and why subjective experience arises in conjunction with certain physical conditions. Until we understand that (and we may, in time), we simply don’t know what to say about brains and minds.

I just meant that, when you ask me what I’m thinking about, I won’t give you an account of my neuronal activity. It would be a category mistake. Nor will a scientist mapping such activity be able to say what I’m thinking about – though we’re getting closer to that (it’s Chalmers’ “Easy Problem”).

I have spent some time on the Mark Solms’ paper that you linked to, and also researched some of the commentary about it. It’s an interesting and deeply learned paper that demands quite a lot of specialist knowledge. But I think it’s worth taking seriously although it is more concerned with neurobiology than philosophy (even if Solms is quite philosophically aware.)

But I will say a few things about it.

First and foremost, it is nothing like a slam dunk refutation of David Chalmer’s Facing up to the Problem of Consciousness, as you sometimes appear to believe. Solms takes Chalmers’ claim seriously and attempts to address it, which deserves credit. But notice that it’s still addressed in functional terms, i.e. what biological function consciousness serves. This is a biological rather than a philosophical approach, in that it assumes that evolutionary adaptation provides the explanatory horizon. Whereas Chalmers argues that “functionalism”—explaining a system by what it does or how it helps an organism survive—is the source of the hard problem. So Solms is still describing a mechanism, which means he has not crossed the line from a biological process to the inherent nature of subjective experience.

In fact, Solms himself concedes a residual mystery. He advocates dual-aspect monism, acknowledging that we can observe the brain objectively from the outside -or -experience mind as a subject. These are two aspects of — what, exactly? I think it’s to his credit that he doesn’t actually claim to know. But in any case, his essay does not fully explain why nature is split into these two completely different perspectives in the first place. (I have a theory!)

Secondly, Solms’ core premise that an emotional drive cannot exist without being felt could be challenged. It is possible to conceive of an advanced artificial intelligence, a robot, or a simple biological organism equipped with an automated brainstem that monitors its own energy levels, calculates survival errors, and corrects its behavior (which is Chalmer’s P-Zombie argument) . This system could perform every single regulatory function Solms describes while operating completely in the dark, without any subjective awareness of suffering, joy, or sentience. Because in such a case the physical mechanism can be separated from the subjective experience in our concepts, the hard problem persists.

Solms also relies heavily on Friston’s Free Energy Principle — part of the title! — to bridge the gap between physical biology and subjectivity. This can be criticized on the grounds that the principle is a broad mathematical description that applies to all self-organizing systems, including completely non-conscious ones like bacteria, cells, or even tornadoes. If a mathematical equation applies equally to a single-celled organism and a human, that equation cannot be the secret sauce that underwrites conscious awareness. And it’s hard to see how such a principle could be empirically falsified.

In sum, he a powerful explanatory framework by moving the emphasis from the cortex to the brainstem. But he has not 'debunked the hard problem, so much as redefined it.

(But then, if you read the OP and the essay it’s about, Solms’ idea that feeling or affect is fundamental to the sense of self (‘ipseity’) is quite compatible with the overall argument of the essay.)

@Citizenschallenge
This is connected to the point I made above – that mechanistic or functional (or evolutionary) explanations of consciousness do not address the hard problem.

I don’t have faith in the system or the people (both have failed humanity too often).
I do have faith in the simple consistent rational behavior of natural evolving systems within Earth’s reality.

Can you see the difference?

How and why experience arises?

In a crowded environment, how could interactions not arise?

What is experience, if not the inevitable result of inevitable interactions?

How could an entity not have an existential need to be aware of its interactions?

That’s where the constant flow of feedback loops comes in, the interactions themselves provide the stuff you are looking for.

What missing piece?
Why isn’t it enough to realize that without experience registering, nothing would have evolved in the first place.

Then focus on finding those mechanisms, as serious scientists have been doing. Rather than so much of the indulgent handwringing going on.

But you certainly would need to do that if you wanted to find out how someone can read that book.

So, please, can we get back to first base, what is Chalmers’ Hard Problem about if not yearning for the experience of someone else’s experience, of their experience?

i think humans greatly misunderstand the concept of mind. you do not need a “mind” to think. In fact you can think and speak completely without mind, as many do when they are in a flow state. As to consequence and cause, both of these concepts do not exist. The reason being is that cause and consequence exist simultaneously in the same moment. For example, what time is it right now? Well, the time is now! In 5 seconds, the time will also be now! As you can see both moments occur in the same now. AKA a cause would occur now, and the effect would also occur in the now moment. Such that it supports the idea that creation occurs in a timeless moment. Cause and effect cease and one celebrates the eternal now moment. Similarly how you do not need a mind to think, you do not need a body to live. Your conciousness, awareness, or beinghood so to speak can exist with or without the body, which is why you can think without a mind. Behindhood, conciousness, whatever you want to call it is quite magical in nature. When we come to earth, we forget our magical nature. That we are indeed magical beings, and that who we arand life itself is quite literally magical.

I think people are confusing brain-space with mind, it’s been like this for decades, people referring to the sense-hub they experience, as mind, when that’s truly brain-space. Brain-space is the experience of the sense-hub- the sense-hub is brain activity.

Mind is what the brain does- the brain does not do the sense-hub- it is the sense hub.

I’ve done about all I can to explain my take on the Hard Problem. Sorry it doesn’t fit the points you believe are important.

And I thought I was asking as simple question.

So am I to assume there is no answer?

Love it.
You mean like Evolution and the biology that makes up who we are?

You would have to explain “brain space.”

It would also be great if you (or anyone else) could explain the flaw in:

Sense + Body + Brain + Interaction (interior & exterior) = “I Am”, awareness, consciousness-spectrum, mind