I am a Moral Nihilist

For example, @Tom_Storm keeps claiming that there are some people who don’t care at all about “the good.” Here is one place:

But of course Hitler does care about the good, as does Ted Bundy. The claim is simply not that everyone is trying to follow a particular moral code, for example. And folks like Jeffrey Epstein inevitably regret choices that they believed to be good at the time. This is in part because good is supervenient and is not materially affixed to certain objects of the will. It also shows, contrary to Tom’s assertion, that what is at stake goes beyond whim (because cases of regret reveal the fact that we can be wrong about what we think to be good).

Beyond that, there may be less rhyme and reason than you suppose:

That could easily be the case. Never claimed any expertise.

I did say Hitler probably thought he brought good. The earlier claim is one I am exploring. You and Tim think the idea is wrong. That’s good, that’s what this site is for.

Well yes, it was late at night after a long day. My full statement said that we’d reached the end of our hypothetical. Are you introducing this to dismiss everything I have said? We went on for so long down related tributaries that I got lost. Don’t think that should be held against me or used as evidence of bad faith.

I’m just doing the best I can providing views I have encountered elsewhere and thought this might be a good place to examine them. I think your answers demonstrate I was correct since you and Tim have plenty to say.

1 Like

I’m probably ignorant of many things, which is partly why I’m here, to hear what else is going.

So far in this discussion of morality, I still tend to side with emotivism, much as I don’t like that conclusion.

I find virtue ethics somewhat clumsy and unconvincing, and I’m not persuaded that the idea of teleology works for me. That said, I’m open to changing my mind.

Have you shifted any of your thinking?

Thanks for this. I have a similar intuition, but I haven’t sat with it long enough or read enough about it yet.

I’m not sure about this. People also regret that they didn’t kill that guy while they still had the chance, or regret that they didn’t steal that car when they had the keys handy. I think people often regret when the outcome is unsatisfying, but I’m not sure how much that tells us about ethical deliberation.

You may be right but I wonder if we would need to look at regret more fully before making a substantive claim about what it says about a person’s relationship to the good. People often regret the consequences of their actions (for example, “my kids don’t talk to me anymore”), but they do not necessarily regret their choices. And they don’t always see the connection.

Ok, so maybe I am using “good” differently from you. I’ve been using it to mean someone striving to do what is morally right as in the Buddhist “Right Action”. I did not think the pursuit of gratification counted as a form of good. I don’t think Ted Bundy was trying to do objective good, although he may well have donated money to charity or helped an old lady cross the road… I think Bundy was a deeply traumatised individual who sought to dominate and destroy others in order to satisfy his own desires.

The word religion signifies binding, as to a doctrine or divinity. Since religions have lost power, it has become problematic to create any kind of moral binding for godless societies.

People continue to try, though. I think this thread has turned to that old task again.

No, quite the opposite. Hitler surely thought he was attaining some consequential good. With someone like Bundy, it’s less clear. I know many serial killers have expressed a sort of hardened nihilism, so they might not see their actions as “morally good,” but they clearly seek something they see as good (as desirable), else they wouldn’t make efforts to attain that good.

So, consider @AmadeusD question:

Not quite. “Good” is used far more broadly, and ontologically. In an ontological register, the good is being qua (truly) desirable. It is being as considered through the lens of the will, the rational appetite for what is best. By way of contrast, truth in the ontological register is being qua intelligible, what can be known, and is what is sought by the intellect.

In terms of decision-making, a “good knife” is (in general) one that cuts well, a good racecar is fast, etc. Of course, what is “good” is always relative to some end (some goal). Hence, a “good knife” for butchering a deer is sharp, while a “good knife” to give to a young child to butter their bread is dull. So, we have means that can be better or worse (more or less good) relative to some end.

However, ends themselves can sometimes be treated as means. For example, the end of the art of saddle making, good saddles, is ordered to the end of horseback riding, right? And it is the distal end that determines the goodness of the proximate end. So, for instance, the goodness of a “good sail” vis-a-vis sail making is determined by the goodness of sailing (the master art to which sailmaking is ordered).

Now, we have lots of ends ordered to other ends in our lives. People seek education to earn money, money to procure pleasure, pleasure to be happy, etc. Aristotle sees happiness as the ultimate end to which all pursuits are ordered, and he gives a number of, IMO very good arguments for this, which have been expanded over the centuries. I should note here that “happiness” (eudaimonia) is not the thin notion of positive sentiment that predominates today, but something more like “living an excellent life and being an excellent person.” I would say that this is largely correct, although I don’t think it fully captures the desire for goodness, because people can and do pursue lives they see as miserable, or death, in order to attain what they see as the highest good (be it something lofty like enlightenment, or tawdry, like petty vengeance). The rational appetite for goodness is the intellectual desire to have what is understood to be best (which is phenomenologically distinct from the sensible desires and emotional/thymotic passions).

So, when it comes to values anti-realism, hardly any philosopher denies that something can be a better or worse car, knife, etc. (although plenty of amateurs seems to). The question of grounding values then, comes down to ultimate ends. Are ends ultimately arbitrary? This seems implausible, since human ends are shared and intelligible. But some will claim that they are grounded in irrational sentiment (generally because the rational appetites are denied), and that on account of this they are merely subjective tastes. At any rate, this sort of ordering is what anchors a teleological approach to ethics. Essentially, all the things we desire can be properly or improperly ordered, to what is truly most desirable. This does not, however, rely on the assumption that everyone recognizes what is most desirable, since people can clearly be wrong about this, or suffer from a weakness of will.

Choice-worthiness is more narrow. It is the good as considered through the lens of our choices. If a certain knife is better for an end than any others, it is most worth of choice. If a certain end is truly more desirable than another, then that end is more choice-worthy. On any account where there is a distinction between what is truly most desirable and what merely appears so, there will be a distinction between what is truly most choice-worthy and what merely appears so.

Now, anyone who is making intentional decisions (who isn’t suffering from a total weakness of will that leaves them bereft of any rational choice) is orienting their actions towards some good. If people do not see their choices as “morally good” this is either a sign of internal conflict, or merely the result of the fact that they don’t actually consider what is “morally good” to be desirable (which simply means that it is someone else’s standard).

The reason much talk of “moral goodness” is confused, is because it is wholly divorced from desirable ends. When someone says “I don’t care about being good, or having what is good,” what they really tend to mean is “I don’t take the standards of my societies’ moralists to reflect what is truly desirable,” not “I do not think anything is more or less desirable, and am indifferent to all outcomes in my life.” Absolutely no one act like they actually believe or experience the latter.

The desire for what is best (over and above any particular sensible or emotional appetite) can, of course, be atrophied. That’s a key point. It is the most powerful desire when it is properly motivated (for better or worse). This is why revolutionaries, saints, and fanatics are capable of great feats of self-sacrifice and asceticism. But it is certainly also the case that many people these desires are given little formation, and the lower appetites (for amusement, social status, and sensible pleasures) are given free reign. This doesn’t mean people cease to have rational desires for truth and goodness, it simply means they have not ordered themselves to these, so that reason has become “a slave to the passions” rather than ruling.

1 Like

No, the concept of virtue tries to subordinate how thing seem to a predetermined notion of the good, the beautiful and the virtuous.

Great, thanks. I have never understood “good” as anything other than the idea of the Good proper, “the right thing to do”. I have never associated goodness with purpose or teleology. And yes, let’s blame modernity for that one. :wink:

I can see the attraction because it is so wholesome. Something is good if it does the job well.

What do the competent critics of Aristotle and virtue ethics say about this frame?

I am not sure if something being good for a purpose translates into moral questions with such ease. A knife is designed for cutting, so presumably a sharp knife is good and a blunt one is bad. But what is the purpose of morality, or of human beings? Do we accept Aristotle’s notion that humans have a natural function like so many knives?

Well, an organism wouldn’t have a purpose in the way a knife or car does. The good of an organism is intrinsic to what it is. So, what a thing is determines what is good for it.

But the metaphysics of goodness is a bit more complicated. Goodness is ultimately what makes anything into any thing (any whole) at all, because it is intrinsic ends (goal-directedness) that binds things into organized wholes. That’s a more complex area though.

The problem is that ordinary people need to make moral decisions. What should we believe? I find the idea of wholeness and intrinsic ends problematic. And while you might argue that I am a “lost” creature of my era, I still need to be convinced that I’m wrong, or that a strong case can be made that I should understand goodness in terms of wholeness or intrinsic purpose. This doesn’t mean that I am not interested in the argument.

1 Like

So Aristotle holds that living things have natural ends (telos) and that “good” is tied to flourishing according to a thing’s function (ergon).

Why would we accept this frame? I may be wrong, but even if things have natural purposes, it doesn’t automatically follow that they should be that way or that fulfilling that purpose is morally good. Aren’t we missing an “ought” step? Also, humans don’t clearly have just one fixed purpose, so different natural capacities can point to different ideas of what counts as flourishing.

Right, and that’s fine. I was just answering @AmadeusD’s question. I did not mean to imply that your ignorance of the subject was a culpable form of ignorance.

I agree. As I said, my point was that the rhyme or reason that Amadeus seemed to be seeking was probably not to be found.

This point, which comes from an entirely different post and conversation, is different. I maintain that if you are presenting absurd objections that you would never yourself make, and presenting them as if they are reasonable objections, then something has gone awry.


But this is another example of the ignoratio elenchus. The things you are presenting prove @Count_Timothy_von_Icarus’ point; they don’t disprove it. You simply misunderstand what he means by “good.” He is not talking about Mr. Rogers when he talks about someone who seeks the good.

Part of regretting a decision is wishing you had not made it, and this entails that your view of what is good has changed since making the decision.

What’s pleasing is how much Tim and I agree. We both reject naive moral nihilism, accepting that there are ethical truths; we both reject those views that place ethical considerations in extrinsic rules or values, in deontology or consequentialism; we agree that right and wrong are centred on the everyday, and is worth taking seriously.

But let’s worry at the difference.

On your account, a horse with a broken leg is a defective horse since it cannot do what horses are for - graze, trot, make more horses, what have you. The evaluation here is grounded in the nature of horses, that this particular instance of horse does not fit. In this account, there is a correct way for a horse to be, and this is found in the world.

On this view, the world comes with normatively already built in. That is a huge metaphysical commitment.

What I’m proffering does not have the same metaphysical requirement. The normative requirement is not built in to the world, but lives in the practice of creatures within the world. Both we and the horse see the broken leg as objectionable; that 's an attitude towards the state of affairs, not a part of the state of affairs.

Some statements are true because they set out how things are. If there is a mismatch, we change the belief to fit the world. Others set out how things ought be, and if there is a mismatch, we change the world to fit the belief. That the leg is broken is one thing; what to do about it is quite another. This is the divide that explains why we cannot derive an ought from an is.

For Tim, oughts are still found in the world. But “ought” is not just about how things are. Tim’s approach involves mistaking what is the case for how things ought be.

But go back to the points of agreement. Our responses converge on the suffering of horse and the concerned agent, not on rules or general moral injunctions. In that regard, perhaps the ethics is in practice irrelevant.

Ok so by “good” here you don’t mean morally good, but satisfying a desire? I have not understood this.

That may be, but I am not attempting to prove anything; I am just providing honest reactions or information I have encountered that seems relevant to me in the discussion. Part of the reason I offer these is to hear what people believe and why, to sharpen my own views. I’m not attached to anything in particular, but I have as yet found no framing of morality that compels me. It may be true that my default setting might count as a variation of nihilism. I’m not sure.

It seems the discussion has been largely confined to variations of Aristotle. I’m sure there are numerous philosophers who take issue with such positions, it would be good to hear these views also.

Are disabled people, according to Aristotle, not good because they fail in the telos department? Gays? What about Gingers?

1 Like

Something like that, yes.

If being “able-bodied” is desirable then it is not as good to be disabled as it is to be able-bodied. This is pretty straightforward, although I realize that the dogmas of modern egalitarianism balk at this.

Posts like these indicate otherwise.

You somewhat misrepresents the argument I presented. It’s not a difference of syntax, but of use.

Sincerely asserting that “Hunted houses are fun” does commit one to sincerely asserting that it is true that haunted houses are fun.

We could use an indexical formalisation here. The difference is that implicitly, “hunted houses are fun” implies that it is truth that hunted houses are fun for me; but “Kicking puppies is bad” implies that it is true that kicking puppies is bad for everyone. Again, the difference is that an ethical truth applies to others, not only to oneself.

That you find haunted houses fun has no implication for others. That you find kicking puppies is bad does.

:grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

I have the Senate enquiry into the NDIS on in the background as I am working. Tim does seem to commit himself to denying some ethical consideration to disabled folk. Neat. I think Barnaby Joyce has similar views.