Generic failures in arguments for the nonexistence God

I’d argue the atheist side against OOO in semantic terms. To me it’s like a round square. It’s not an empirical hypothesis in the first place. I also think the appearence/reality distinction ( if the reality is “Objective Reality”) is tacitly a version of God, something like the faded residue of a once passionate theism.

To me belief is primarily enacted as the “shape” of non-verbal conduct. So it’s not like a game of “Chess” where all we care about is words that are supposed to “mirror” a hidden “True” reality. My objection to “truth” ( as deep property) is basically the same as my objection to the OOO-God. To me it’s all non-empirical “nonsense.” Not “pure nonsense.” Certainly feelings are involved. There is some kind of signification. But it’s way too blurry for my taste.

Yes there are concerns about God’s attributes and whether they’re free of paradoxes but the matter is resolved by examining the Epicurean trilemma. There are people who say God’s not omnipotent or that he’s not omniscient or that he’s not omnibenevolent. Some consider this to be too destructive to theism. It’s to toe the Humean line: Is He neither willing nor able? Then why call him God? This is a misunderstanding of God.

God’s a hypothesis and while it may not be at par with (say) scientific or a mechanic’s hypothesis it is one. Like any hypothesis about reality it’s empirical i.e. it’s falsifiable. However that doesn’t mean it’s falsified. If it were then why are there theists?

I think what I wrote above should prompt you to rethink your conclusion that theism is nonsense. Life’s full of nonsense and yet they are e.g. light is a wave and a particle. :grinning_face:

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Personally I don’t think in terms of “true” or “false.” I’d say instead that empirical claims are subject to embarrassment or negative feedback. As philosophers of science have noted long before me, we can always blame the failure of a prediction on some other piece of our system of beliefs.

Generally an empirical claim directs us to expect this perception rather than that one, this measurement rather than that one. I don’t see how an OOO-God allows for this.

With respect to the bolded question, the scientific management of belief is the exception rather than the rule. And then what people even mean by “God” varies. Many sophisticated theists would disagree with you, I think, that theism is an empirical hypothesis.

I respect some manifestations of theism, so I am not an anti-theist. But I am skeptical about “metaphysical” theism. If God is “only a thesis,” then that’s just another speculative theory. Then argument tacitly becomes the God of God, because the concern shifts to making a case, and away from the meaning of the thesis in the first place.

How is this theism performed ? For instance, is homophobia justified in terms of the OT ? Is the OT taken to be written by God in the first place ? Is the OOO more of a global God, detached from any particular tradition ? All this stuff matters. Is there an afterlife ? If so, why should one believe that ? The more vague God is, the more easily defended, at least in political terms. But what exactly is being defended ?

Let’s say Joe is a theist. He is sure that God exists. But he knows nothing definite about God. Is Joe kinder to people now ? More arrogant ? Less arrogant ? Does Joe give money to widows and orphans ? What does belief in God do with the body ? I’d even say that belief is primarily what the body does, and the mouth here is part of that but not the focus.

Do you know the work of Whitman or Emerson ? Great stuff. My view, expressed metaphorically, is that every existence is a “face” of “God.” This is one version among many of the “God == Reality” approach. You might say that I am only naming reality with this word “God.” And I agree. But I see reality as nothing hidden “behind” experience. Reality is there as the shared world that we are in the middle of making sense of. Post-Hegelian Christian-influenced thought might be called “visionary humanism.” Metaphorically speaking, it understands the “incarnation” to be total, so that God is only mortal flesh in the world. From this POV, we ourselves are each little pieces of God. But this God is not complete, not perfect, not devoid of evil. The “God” is something like the historical process itself, that comes to understand itself as such in a gradual intensification of time-binding self-consciousness. I might choose the early work of Feuerbach as the best source on this.

Yes, we’re free to ignore truth/falsehood. It’s quite common to do so. For example questions, suggestions, commands are neither true nor false.

Why isn’t God an empirical claim? See here

You’re at liberty to believe and do as you please, but that doesn’t prove God doesn’t exist. Nor does it prove that God does.

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I suppose there’s no harm in discussing Leonhard Euler’s proof of God.

x = \frac{a + b^n}{n}. Hence God exists! Reply. Euler was speaking to Diderot

I’ve graphed the equation using a = 1, b = 2 and n as the variable. The values for a and b are arbitrary. Euler didn’t say which of the 3 were variables and which were constants. I’ve also marked the region between -1 and +1 and a local minimum on the graph

Behavior of the equation

  1. Between -1 and 0 the graph approaches - \infty
  2. Between 0 and +1 the graph goes off to + \infty
  3. Beyond -1 the graph asymptotes to 0
  4. Beyond +1 the graph shoots off to + \infty

It’s basically a hyperbola that’s suffering from b^n, which overwhelms the hyperbola’s asymptotic behavior as n \to \infty. It’s a hyperbola-exponentiation hybrid

A hyperbola :backhand_index_pointing_down:

The graphs were made with Desmos Graphing Calculator

I agree. But I don’t think of “proof” in a quasi-mathematical sense.

I’m not young enough to think that I am going to talk people into or out of belief in God.

And that’s all we’re saying. You’ve failed to show us your truth-maker, ergo we don’t believe your claim. ‘Agnosticism’ (re: theism, “pastry-in-the-fridge”) does not obtain. Case closed. :upside_down_face:

That may not be specific enough a criticism to matter. The claims are God exists and God doesn’t exist. If there’s another claim you have to state it so that we can discuss it.

Regarding my pastry example, you have to show there’s no pastry. Do you expect me to believe there’s no pastry without you showing me there’s no pastry?

Proof is what it is. Any book on logic will clarify any doubts you have. There’s no problem if you want to do something different.

Your earlier statement makes your last point quite intriguing.

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From my POV, you are tacitly projecting a questionable “metaphysicks” on a mere formalism. A serious study of mathematics by a philosopher doesn’t quash doubts. It inspires them. I’m probably not the ideal victim of “vague appeals to math and logic.”

What do you make of Turing’s especially elegant proof in his famous paper that there is no algorithm for deciding whether a Turing machine is circle-free ?

How do you make senes of the proof that p^2 = 2q^2 has no solutions in the positive integers ? What is it exactly ( or less inexactly) to find this proof convincing ?

Or — an apparently “easier” question — what is the “total real world meaning” of P \implies Q ? Or do you think the mere symbols radiate an Immediate Deep Cosmic Truth ?

My last point is connected to what I’d call “emotional intelligence” of “psychological realism.” In other words, people aren’t calculators. People cling to their beliefs. This happens even in physics and math, though less conspicuously. In philosophy, it is vivid. This is why outsiders sometimes say that philosophy doesn’t make progress. They expect philosophers to arrive at a consensus. But this is just part of the monological prejudice that some philosophers —not most of them — escape.

The question wasn’t for me, but I’ll bite.

Most atheists aren’t motivated to convince theists to abandon their beliefs, at least in my experience. But this is a philosophy forum. Typically those introducing entities are expected to make a case for them.

“Did you know that a 7-eyed spider-like entity from Neptune named Morff rules our planet ? Prove otherwise !”

This becomes easier to understand if you think of belief in visceral terms. Humans cooperate “physically” or “materially” with their bodies in the world. Joe wants Sally to spent time and energy on this project rather than that one. If people were just bags of words, then verbal beliefs wouldn’t matter enough to be worth discussing and comparing in the first place.

As Popper put, we let our theories do our dying for us. That is science. A theory that we won’t allow to die, no matter what, is not empirical, not scientific. The scientific personality identities with a second-order tradition of belief management, a meta-belief about how beliefs should be managed — and not with a particular first-order belief.

Strawman. We do not claim “God doesn’t exist”. We claim theism is not true, therefore we don’t believe its unproven claims.

I have said only that no Proof(God exists) and no Proof(God doesn’t exist). Why these have generated so much controversy is beyond me.

It’s not about convincing you or me or anyone in particular. Given the rules and other pertinent aspects of an issue is the matter resolved in favor or against? Logic is a vast subject and if you’d like we can discuss it but in the given circumstances 1st order logic seems adequate. If not then I’m all stoked up.

You’ve also made a statement regarding your personal views on epistemology. You’ll be glad to know that I’ve bounced it off other people and they’re very appreciative.

Regarding your last paragraph - on emotional intelligence + others - is it something you discovered yourself or something someone told you? It sounds interesting. There are a couple of atheists I know who were former preachers and they’re frequently confronted by Christians who tell them, you weren’t really a believer. They clarify, if I weren’t Christian nobody is. There are those who go the other way too, from atheism to theism with the same story to tell. What’s emotional intelligence by the way? :smiley:

The analogy-claim about spiders is a caricature of my stance. It is a frequent tactic/ploy, depending on one’s disposition at the time, and frequently marks a point where the discussion is stuck.

The remaining part of your post seems to be someone else’s ideas that seem to resonate with you. This is not a problem. I kinda see where you’re coming from but does it amount to a Proof(God exists) or a Proof(God doesn’t exist)? Language is one of the abilities that picks us out as unique. Words are purveyors of meaning. I like language. In principio erat verbum. Et verbum erat apud Deum. Et verbum erat Deus. I’m not Christian, I don’t think so, not yet, may be I was, not sure. It just clicks with me. :smiley:

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I would like to ask you which is true,

  1. God exists
  2. God doesn’t exist

?

Neither: “God” is an empty name.

God = Omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnibenevolent. It’s not an empty name.

Pegasus = flying, winged horse. “It’s not an empty name”? :laughing:

We’re talking about God. Pegasus is a good example. Pegasus is an empty name and Pegasus doesn’t exist.

Neither: “God” is an empty name.

Neither is a good option = Agnosticism

:blush: