Furthering Philippa Foot

Her point is that she is following him on a number of different points, and that the point of moral action in particular is complex. From our perspective when Aquinas uses a word like “circumstance” it is a term of artifice of moral philosophy. Foot is recognizing this and warding off an improper reading of that translation. There are ongoing debates among Thomists on how to interpret the nuances of Thomas’ view on how circumstance comes into moral thinking.

It’s interesting how closely she reads Aquinas, sometimes even quoting the exact Latin. She must’ve gotten that from Anscombe.

I figured you were just pulling from the concluding sentences of the SEP article. :face_with_tongue:

So that part of the article is referring to her later work. I am not very familiar with it, so I can’t really answer your questions. Granted, it appears as though she follows Aristotle and Aquinas very closely.

Yes, that’s a classic difficulty. We are capable of things that are not all that nice; so if the measure is what we are capable of, we haven’t got that far. We are capable of cruelty, so is cruelty part of what it is to flourish? But cruelty undermines other capabilities, in particular, those of open cooperation, trust and so on. Presumably these positives outweigh the negative. How, well…

It might be that we can’t progress our ethical understanding in the way Foot suggests; that we can’t further foot.

You have enough of a background in Philosophy to understand that this is a decidedly Wittgensteinian approach…:grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

You never quite get to ignore philosophy, do you.

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Oh, that’s interesting. Are there different schools of Thomism?

Oh yeah, there are a lot of different schools of Thomism. But the positions of that debate don’t really line up with the school lines.

Seems that way. In Natural Goodness Foot owns up to some of the shortcomings that her critics have pointed out (such as the things I noted above). For example:

Roughly speaking, [my long-standing difficulty occurred] because I still held a more or less Humean theory of reasons for action, taking it for granted that reasons had to be based on an agent’s desires. To be sure, in another article written in 1972 I had (rather inconsistently with my doubts about the rational status of morals) allowed considerations of self-interest an independent ‘reason-giving’ force.[13] But this didn’t help with the rationality of disinterested justice, which rationality I was, rather scandalously, inclined to restrict to those whose desires were such as to allow them to be described as lovers of justice. I have therefore, rightly, been accused by my critics of reintroducing subjectivity at the level of rationality while insisting on objectivity in the criteria of moral right and wrong.

In common with others, I took it for granted at that time that a discussion of the rationality of moral action would start from some theory or other about what a reason for action must be: rather favouring a desire-fulfilment theory, with some special allowance for the force of considerations of self-interest. I now believe that both the self-interest theory of rationality and the theory of rationality as desire fulfilment are mistaken. Moreover, there seems to be a mistake of strategy involved in trying to fit the rationality of moral action into either theory: such an enterprise implying that we first come to a theory of rational action, and then try as best we can to slot in the rationality of acts of justice and charity.

That this was a mistake of strategy was suggested to me by my friend Warren Quinn, and while I do not think that he really developed the idea himself, the same thought is implicit in his attack on end-neutral, Humean, theories of rationality, in an important article, ‘Putting Rationality in its Place’…

(Philippa Foot, Natural Goodness, 10)

So it turns out that some of the things we have criticized in @Banno’s position—and which Foot had previously held in her second philosophical phase—were later recognized by Foot herself as requiring significant revision.

I wonder what occasioned this change of attitude. :joy:

Even you have to admit that this is a great bit of cosmic irony. :innocent:

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In fairness to @Banno he did make the point earlier that he wasn’t really advocating Foot’s position just wanting to see where it would lead.

In fairness to me, I would need to attend a series of lectures and do some required reading to learn where any of this leads (as might all of us).

I imagine that flourishing and teleology can both be used badly and inadequately in philosophical justification.

I’m not sure where I sit with either, to be honest. One of the issues is that there’s really nothing at stake. I can continue to go about my business without ever needing to consider either. But this doesn’t mean I am not curious.

I take it you hold an Aristotelian position on both. Is this how you would sketch it out?

  • All things have a natural function or purpose.
  • The distinctive function of human beings is the exercise of reason.
  • A thing flourishes when it performs its natural function well.
  • Therefore, human beings flourish when they exercise reason well.
  • Exercising reason well requires the cultivation of virtue.
  • Therefore, human flourishing consists in the cultivation of virtue.
  • Moral behaviour is behaviour that promotes human flourishing.
  • Therefore, moral behaviour consists in acting virtuously in accordance with reason.

If that’s roughly right, then I can at least see the structure of the view, even if I’m not a “customer”.

He seems to have suddenly lost interest in seeing where it leads!

Well in this post you said that you hold essentialist views, albeit conflictedly.

Yeah, that’s roughly right. :+1:

Foot’s 2001 book Natural Goodness is freely available, you just need to log into the website to ‘borrow’ it. Maybe have a look and see what you think. Or we could look at what she says in earlier works if they are available online.

Yes, I hold a number of contradictory views, I’m sure many people do.

The purpose of philosophy is, presumably to sort through such things. If one has the time and capacity.

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This is interesting, so I’ll come back to it.

Is it analogous to the duck-rabbit, in that if we come across someone who can see the rabbit but not the duck, we can “educate” them by pointing out the ears, the nose, and so on? So in the case of the bullfight, we point to the animal’s distress, the crowd’s enjoyment of the suffering, so as to make the cruelty more visible to someone who couldn’t see it before. It’s not a question of intellectual argument; it’s about seeing what is in front of you.

This comes back to the difference between showing and saying, so central to Wittgenstein’s response to rule following. It puts ethics back in our communal interactions, where it belongs. Our practice is where our philosophical thinking begins.

These things are also far more visceral than the quiddity that supposedly grounds Thomistic interpretations. The metaphysics is supposedly what makes the ethical theory real, but it is bloodless, remote, intellectual, in the face of suffering and cruelty. Foot’s approach, our direct recognition of evil, is far stronger, far more human.

This was shared among the four: Anscombe, Murdoch, Foot, and Midgley, who refused to ground ethics in mere theory, but instead brought it down to what is right in front of us.

I also suspect that this is closer to what @Tom_Storm is looking for. We must keep an eye on how this all cashes out, since that is the whole point.

Categoricals come from Michael Thompson fairly recently. Aristotle coins the term essence, in the Greek “what it was to be” (to ti en einai), just as a matter of geneological clarification. I have never seen anyone try to claim that Aristotle wasn’t an essentialist. What is argued over (endlessly) is the extent to which Aristotle can be called a Platonist (which he can be in some ways and not others).

Anyhow, I guess what stands out to me is that saying that categoricals are “inherently both descriptive and yet normative” and that “normative standards emerge from the pattern of living things” is not obviously a non-metaphysical or non-essentialist account of goodness. Thompson’s categoricals are originally there to enable a naturalistic account where organisms as wholes are prior to anything the language community is saying about “what counts as x.” The categorical “wolves hunt in packs” is supposed to track something real about the nature of wolves; the categorical does not constitute such a nature. Rather, the “normativity” (measure of “goodness for”) flows from the life-form. This is, in context, a biological fact about a kind, not a linguistic delineation. When a wolf fails to hunt effectively, it is defective because of what wolves are, not because of what men say wolves are

So, perhaps you could adapt something like the categorical to your own commitments and find use for them, but their original framing is precisely a context where the ontological reality of the organism is prior. I am pretty sure I have seen the logical form of the categorical adopted to forms of linguistic idealism before, but that would be a very different reading.

Anyhow, we still need an account of why this characteristic organic pattern is normative (i.e., good). So it seems we still need either:

A. Something like a teleological nature; or

B. A purely statistical/functional account (which Foot explicitly rejects as insufficient).

To the extent that one allows an is/ought gap, it is unclear how it is ever crossed here without an appeal to A. B does not get us here. But note that there are purely immanent explanations of teleology (or something like it), so this doesn’t obviously require throwing around the adjectives “divine” or “eternal” per se.

But to your earlier point about “seeing” values from facts, without them “following:” Hume’s famous argument in the Treatise supporting the gap at the opening of Book III is precisely that one can never see vice and virtue, in the same way that one never observes causes. Virtue and vice, and causality, are extrinsic subjective imputations.

Of course, the counter is that seeing a rock smash a window just is seeing causality, and seeing a vile act just is seeing evil, and that Hume’s entire argument rests on the dogmatic assertion of allocating some elements of experience to the subjective realm, and others to the objective.

The gap exists because of the anthropology presupposed, to quote the man himself:

Since morals, therefore, have an influence on the actions and affections, it follows, that they cannot be derived from reason; and that because reason alone, as we have already proved, can never have any such influence. Morals excite passions, and produce or prevent actions. Reason of itself is utterly impotent in this particular. The rules of morality therefore, are not conclusions of our reason.

No one, I believe, will deny the justness of this inference; nor is there any other means of evading it, than by denying that principle, on which it is founded. As long as it is allowed, that reason has no influence on our passions and action, it is in vain to pretend, that morality is discovered only by a deduction of reason. An active principle can never be founded on an inactive; and if reason be inactive in itself, it must remain so in all its shapes and appearances, whether it exerts itself in natural or moral subjects, whether it considers the powers of external bodies, or the actions of rational beings.

It would be tedious to repeat all the arguments, by which I have proved, that reason is perfectly inert, and can never either prevent or produce any action or affection, it will be easy to recollect what has been said upon that subject. I shall only recall on this occasion one of these arguments, which I shall endeavour to render still more conclusive, and more applicable to the present subject.

This is the begining of Book III. The reason that we can never derive ethics from descriptions, for Hume, flows from his anthropology. I should note that when he says he has “already proven” reason is inert, this is Book II. Part III. Sect 3., and it amounts to him dogmatically asserting this is so. Hume really has no comparative phenomenology or historical overview to support this assertion, he takes it as true because it’s already a popular idea in his context and runs with it essentially unargued. But it is precisely this unargued point that is so critical to the gap. This point, however, presupposes something like the original use case for categoricals is false. You can never tell what is good for something by knowing what it is, because knowing and feeling are mutually exclusive, one targeting the subjective, the other the objective. They never mix. If they did mix, you don’t have the gap in the first place.

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Yes, could be. What is an intuition, after all? The reason I rather like the term here, though, is that it provides a way of addressing the question, “But if it’s just seeing, then why do some people not see it?” We could continue the metaphor and say that some people have poor vision in certain areas. Or we could say that those “certain areas” involve a particular type or mode of vision which “intuition” is meant to capture.

Yes, that’s very much what I meant by “sentimental education.” I’d add one important element: We also have to educate a person to compassion, to empathy. It isn’t enough to just point and say, “That animal is in distress.” We also have to provide tools so that our pupil can experience the distress as if it were their own. Understandably, we often take that step for granted, but many people can look upon suffering, seeing it quite for what it is, and not much care, because their circle of compassion is so small.

I think that’s right, and it points to an unresolved issue. Let’s use the “bullfighting is cruel” case. We can begin by noting that:

1.Bullfighting is cruel.

But we then want to go on to say:

2.Cruelty is bad.

And finally:

3.I/you/we ought not to do bad things.

So the question is, How much of the content of these three statements can be packed into the first one? Foot and similar ethicists want to “see” all three in the first, I believe. But it’s not that easy.

We can probably make a strong case that 2 is implicit in 1, assuming a certain definition of “cruel.” But getting to 3 by this method is much harder. “Smuggling” may be too strong, but there does seem to be a leap from “is” to “ought” that isn’t obviously licensed by the 1st two statements.

My own sense is that getting to 3 is not deductive – but then it needn’t be, if it’s a matter of simply seeing. How that can be the case is the account we need to flesh out.

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Are you basing this on her earlier work? I will admit that I am only familiar with Foot, Murdoch, and Anscombe from their most famous works. So perhaps Banno is drawing on earlier comments from them I am not familiar with. But the OP draws up a broadly Humean hard dichotomy between the intellect and sentiment/will, and proposes a Wittgenstein solution, consistent with @Banno’s past positions. I have my disagreements here but I don’t feel like rehashing them.

I am curious though where these figures come into the mix. From their most famous works, they are arguing precisely against this sort of Humean dichotomy. Anscombe and Foot are credited with helping foster a resurgence of interest in broadly teleological approaches in Anglo-analytic thought, and Murdoch with the resurrection of Platonism in the same context. So for instance, attention for Murdoch is an intellectual-moral achievement, not a sentimental one. The Good is intelligible.

Let me quote a summary of Anscombe’s most famous work:

Anscombe’s Modern Moral Philosophy is a polemic against ethics legislated by human will and desire rather than by the objective requirements of human nature. Her argument is that the concept of moral obligation only makes sense within a divine law framework, and that without that framework modern ethics degenerates into Humean expressivism or Kantian self-legislation — both of which she regards as catastrophic.

This is why I find it strange to maintain that Anscombe (or the others) support the notion that ethics “grows from how we interact and what we choose.” This is almost the exact opposite of her mature position. She thought the voluntarist and sentimentalist traditions had corrupted moral philosophy beyond recognition, becoming the main inspiration for figures such as MacIntyre, etc.

I will readily allow that I am not familiar with their immature work though, and I know they all discuss being under the sway of the Humean distinctions that dominated Anglo thought around that period earlier, so perhaps there is a temporal element to my confusion here?

Anyhow, even the mature forms would agree with these points in practice:

They would simply deny the strong dichotomy between the intellectual and sentimental as problematic. C.S. Lewis was writing a bit earlier and this was one of his big areas of focus too, the tendency towards sentimentalism within Anglophone Christianity (particularly mistranslations of the Greek “heart” for sentiment, when it was in fact the “eye of the nous,” intellect, for the Greeks), and the deflation of reason to mere calculation without impetus (quite at odds with the ancients he studied for whom the nous leads us to God, the Good and True). I’m not sure if there is any historical influence here, but they overlap at Oxford. Lewis is himself popularizing arguments against the sentimentalist paradigm already popular on the continent though, or in Chesterton and Newman in England, so it isn’t like Lewis is the origin either, but maybe he starts the process of popularizing them in English. The Dominicans, meanwhile, had been saying this about Hume from the begining.

Murdoch would say that the person who sees the cruelty in bullfighting really does sees it. For contrast, this is precisely what Hume says it utterly impossible. So, with Murdoch, without the distorting filters of convention, self-interest, or habituation to cruelty, we simply find ourselves under the claim of the Good. Hence, the “ought” doesn’t need to be separately licensed because the perception already contains the “evaluative” content. It is not something superadded by a wholly “subjective” extrinsic imputation.

Thus, the failure to get from 1 and 2 to 3 is not a simply a logical failure but a perceptual one. This failure is simultaneously in affective and intellectual (as we would put it classically, goodness is intelligible).

But we could also add here as motivation the desire for goodness itself, and an aversion to badness qua badness. The Kantian should have no real problem here either I would think. So, if goodness is itself both desired and truly desirable, I don’t see how practical reason gets frustrated reaching 3. Granted, I have never seen Anscombe and Foot make the desirability of the good qua good explicit.

Interestingly, for Murdoch, the desiring, willing, choosing self is actually what distorts our perception, rather than what generates our moral sense. By contrast, Hume puts the self at the center here. Sentiment, for Hume, is the mechanism, and the self’s passions are the source of moral motivation. I would say the difference is then a sentimentalism that attempts to live with the gap, versus approaches that deny it (at least in any strict sense) by denying the anthropology that creates it for Hume.

Formation becomes critical in either view though. For Murdoch, we cannot simply teach people the correct ethical framework and expect correct perception to follow, because the instrument of perception is itself disordered. This is a view I find most powerfully expressed in the Patristic tradition actually, with its heavy focus on the clouding of the nous, and the various modes of praxis required to reform it (e.g., Saint John Cassian, Evagrios, Saint John Climacus, Saint Palladius’ Sayings of the Desert Fathers, etc.). Unfortunately, precisely because this tradition focuses on Praxis it tends to get very little attention in mainstream academic philosophy, even in more Catholic or medieval focused programs.

I haven’t read Foot carefully since grad school, so decades ago. My remark was based on a much more recent reading of Metaphysical Animals, an interesting account of the four women philosophers @Banno mentions. It goes into some detail about Foot’s (various) ethical perspectives. What I had in mind might be shown here, describing “When is a Principle a Moral Principle?”:

It is not true that moral judgment floats free of our ideas about a good human life. Reality is not brute and nameless. Rather, we will only be prepared to call something a moral principle, she said, if we can “fill in a certain background” . . . that allows us to see “a connexion, in a man’s mind, with that (admittedly large) collection of virtues and vices.” . . . Virtue terms carry with them “a special way of looking at something” [my emphasis] . . .They illuminate the background pattern. (239-40)

The idea, which I think is the one @Banno wants to elaborate, is that morality is not a deduction, a logical generation of an ought from an is. It is something much more primary than that, much closer to a recognition or a seeing (of course informed, or not, by our culture and personal education).

Well, but Anscombe was a Catholic and Foot was not.

Would that it were so simple. We’ve discussed this often. For me, it is possible – indeed, common – to accept an evaluative content in a perception or judgment while at the same time refusing to be bound by it, or simply not be interested. For you, I take it, such a condition is impossible. Of course many people find themselves “under the claim of the Good,” (as perhaps they should :wink:) but I believe that is a separate step or movement, one that is not necessitated by the acknowledgment of the levels 1 and 2 statements.

I think you must be a very good person, Tim, seriously, since the influence of the Good seems to come naturally to you, so naturally that you have trouble imagining it otherwise. Yet I look around me and find so many who are not good people, precisely because they cannot either see, feel, or think the connection to statement 3. Sadly, I am sometimes in that condition myself.

I’m not sure what source you are quoting? Here is Anscombe herself:

I should judge that Hume and our present-day ethicists had done a considerable service by showing that no content could be found in the notion “morally ought”; if it were not that the latter philosophers try to find an alternative (very fishy) content and to retain the psychological force of the term. It would be most reasonable to drop it. It has no reasonable sense outside a law conception of ethics; they are not going to maintain such a conception; and you can do ethics without it, as is shown by the example of Aristotle. It would be a great improvment if, instead of “morally wrong,” one always named a genus such as “untruthful,” “unchaste,” “unjust.” We should no longer ask whether doing something was “wrong,” passing directly from some description of an action to this notion; we should ask whether, e.g., it was unjust; and the answer would sometimes be clear at once.

(Anscombe, Modern Moral Philosophy, 8-9)

-

I don’t think Anscombe says anything in that essay about “Humean expressivism.” In fact she is generous to Hume on the whole:

But with Hume it is otherwise: hence he is a very profound and great philosopher, in spite of his sophistry.

(ibid. 3)

As to Kant, she says very little, dismissing him cursorily.

The point here is that I think Foot and Anscombe were mindful of Hume, especially in their early days. Or rather, Anscombe was mindful of Hume and Foot was mindful of Kant, and the is-ought distinction historically comes from Kant even more than Hume.

In Foot’s case this haunts her work up until 2001, at which point she changed her view in important ways.* As a virtue ethicist Foot is especially interested in Kant’s alternative and in the questions about goodness that Moore originally raised. We might say that she is more directly interested in the fact/value distinction than in the is/ought distinction. Even the title of her famous essay, “Morality as a System of Hypothetical Imperatives,” is deeply mindful of the gulf between motivations and duty that Kant carves out with his “categorical imperative.”

* She actually says this explicitly on page 9 of Natural Goodness.

Is it permissible to continue to draw these tired “either-ors” between Foot and Aquinas given Foot’s embrace of Aquinas? :thinking:

I suppose the primary problem here is that the telos of humans is “happiness” (eudaimonia), not the exercise of reason. This end is achieved in part through the use of reason (in the broad sense) because humans are rational animals, but the end itself is happiness. Here is Foot:

The idea of human good is deeply problematic. One may be inclined to think of it as happiness, but much would have to be said before that could be so understood as to be true, and I shall discuss this in a later chapter. Here I want only to recall that Wittgenstein famously said on his deathbed, ‘Tell them I have had a wonderful life.’ The example should teach us not to be too ready to speak of every good life as ‘a happy life’: Wittgenstein surely did not have a happy life, being too tormented and self-critical for that.

Thus the idea of a good life for a human being, and the question of its relation to happiness, is each deeply problematic. And, moreover, there is so much diversity in human beings and human cultures that the schema of natural normativity may seem to be inapplicable from the start. Nevertheless, for all the diversities of human life, it is possible to give some quite general account of human necessities, that is, of what is quite generally needed for human good, if only by starting from the negative idea of human deprivation. For then we see at once that human good depends on many characteristics and capacities that are not needed even by animals, never mind by plants. There are, for instance, physical properties such as the kind of larynx that allows of the myriad sounds that make up human language, as well as the kind of hearing that can distinguish them. Moreover, human beings need the mental capacity for learning language; they also need powers of imagination that allow them to understand stories, to join in songs and dances—and to laugh at jokes. Without such things human beings may survive and reproduce themselves, but they are deprived. And what could be more natural than to say on this account that we have introduced the subject of possible human defects; calling them ‘natural defects’ as we used these terms in the discussion of plant and animal life?

(Philippa Foot, Natural Goodness, 43)

This is not an example that Foot uses, and it’s unclear how helpful it is. @Banno seems to be interested in animal cruelty, with kicking puppies and fighting bulls and whatnot.

Foot herself often takes the example of murder for the sake of gain, or else focuses on acts and analyses that pertain to virtue. It would probably be better to talk about the sorts of things that she would talk about if we want to think through her philosophy.

I was comparing it to your use of the duck-rabbit example. Is it more than trivially true that the image strikes me as a duck? If not, then why is more than trivially true that it strikes me that bullfighting is wrong?

It is very important for Moore to demonstrate that this is a hand. The more important it becomes for him, the more vigorously he shakes his hand. But emphasizing the importance of it for him doesn’t make it more true.

What is not trivial is the system of practices within which it makes sense to declare that bullfighting is wrong. But the intelligiblity this system produces is not a truth.We can only trivially say it is true that within my system bullfighting is wrong.

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