# Free Will: Does it Exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Metaphysics & Epistemology\ **Created:** [June 2, 2026, 12:30am UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200 "2026-06-02T00:30:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Michael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Michael](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Michael)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:14pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/41 "2026-06-02T15:14:30Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > How would that be different from saying a conscious puppet has free will? Because it’s not the puppet’s conscious will that’s causing its arms to move; it’s the strings being pulled by the puppet master that’s causing its arms to move. There’s a difference between you moving your arm and me moving your arm even if determinism is true. ---
**Author:** ![FlannelJesus](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/flanneljesus/32/595_2.png) [@FlannelJesus](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/FlannelJesus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:15pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/42 "2026-06-02T15:15:55Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I don’t really think physicalism much bearing on any of it. An idealist can be a hard determinist. It doesn’t matter what the underlying stuff is. I fully agree with this! Some people think Dualism changes the determinism picture significantly, but I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Michael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Michael](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Michael)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:19pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/43 "2026-06-02T15:19:04Z")
> [@felipec](#): > > I argued 2) because you claimed a person would consider a decision to be in their control if their conscious will was the cause of the decision, which is clearly not possible. Why is it not possible? If physicalism is true then my conscious will is as physically real as my unconscious brain activity, and if it’s possible for unconscious brain activity to cause my arms to move then it’s _prima facie_ possible for my conscious will to cause my arms to move. You seem to have snuck back in some notion of the conscious will being a non-physical, epiphenomenal thing? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/frank/32/216_2.png) [@Frank](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:21pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/44 "2026-06-02T15:21:59Z")
> [@Michael](#): > > Because it’s not the puppet’s conscious will that’s causing its arms to move; it’s the strings being pulled by the puppet master that’s causing its arms to move. > > There’s a difference between you moving your arm and me moving your arm even if determinism is true. So it’s more like a robot than a puppet. You’re saying the robot is responsible for its actions even though it’s controlled by a program. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin1](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/mijin1/32/1180_2.png) [@Mijin1](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Mijin1)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:22pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/45 "2026-06-02T15:22:34Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > > [@Mijin1](#): > > > > I definitely prefer terms like volition and choice. > > How does that differ from will? As I say, because they don’t have the baggage. They aren’t assumed to be things that are incompatible with determinism or neuroscience. That need to be “outside” of everything in order to be “real”. ---
**Author:** ![Michael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Michael](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Michael)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:22pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/46 "2026-06-02T15:22:44Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > You’re saying the robot is responsible for its actions even though it’s controlled by a program. > > Correct? Yes. We say “the robot knocked over the vase” not “the programmer knocked over the vase”. ---
**Author:** ![FlannelJesus](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/flanneljesus/32/595_2.png) [@FlannelJesus](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/FlannelJesus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:23pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/47 "2026-06-02T15:23:19Z")
I think it’s more saying that the program is responsible. When we talk about a person being responsible for their actions, we don’t mean that persons meat and bones - we mean that persons mind. The mind would be comparable to the program. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/frank/32/216_2.png) [@Frank](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:25pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/48 "2026-06-02T15:25:15Z")
> [@Michael](#): > > Yes. We say “the robot knocked over the vase” not “the programmer knocked over the vase”. We say the ball crashed through the window even though little Todd smacked it over there. So we’re like robots that act per a program, but we have free will because of something linguistic? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/frank/32/216_2.png) [@Frank](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:26pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/49 "2026-06-02T15:26:44Z")
> [@FlannelJesus](#): > > I think it’s more saying that the program is responsible. When we talk about a person being responsible for their actions, we don’t mean that persons meat and bones - we mean that persons mind. The mind would be comparable to the program. Ok, but Michael is arguing that a person is controlled by external factors, yet has responsibility. I’m not seeing how that works. ---
**Author:** ![felipec](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/felipec/32/759_2.png) [@felipec](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/felipec)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:35pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/50 "2026-06-02T15:35:02Z")
> [@Michael](#): > > If physicalism is true then my conscious will is as physically real as my unconscious brain activity That is nonsense. If I can imagine a pink unicorn floating in space that doesn’t mean the pink unicorn is as physically real as my brain. The **idea** of a pink unicorn might be real, not the pink unicorn. ---
**Author:** ![Michael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Michael](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Michael)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:36pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/51 "2026-06-02T15:36:55Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > So we’re like robots that act per a program, but we have free will because of something linguistic? I’m saying that “I have free will” means “My will is causally responsible for my actions”. The latter can obtain even if my will is causally determined by antecedent events. ---
**Author:** ![Existism](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Existism](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Existism)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:36pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/52 "2026-06-02T15:36:56Z")
yeah but as humans we aren’t causing the arm to move, atleast in my opinion the laws of physics are. ---
**Author:** ![Michael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Michael](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Michael)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:41pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/53 "2026-06-02T15:41:05Z")
> [@felipec](#): > > That is nonsense. If I can imagine a pink unicorn floating in space that doesn’t mean the pink unicorn is as physically real as my brain. The **idea** of a pink unicorn might be real, not the pink unicorn. I haven’t said anything to the contrary. I’m saying that if physicalism is true then there are three distinct physical events: 1. Unconscious brain activity 2. Conscious will 3. My arms moving It’s possible that (1) causes (2) and that (2) causes (3). You seem to be arguing that it’s impossible for (2) to cause (3), and that (3) can only be caused by (1). You haven’t explain why this is. What’s the relevant difference between (1) and (2) such that (1) can cause (3) but (2) can’t? ---
**Author:** ![Patterner](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/patterner/32/192_2.png) [@Patterner](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Patterner)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:43pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/54 "2026-06-02T15:43:07Z")
> [@Existism](#): > > If you say a criminal shouldn’t be charged because they didn’t have free will, well if they still get punished that also wasn’t an act of free will. If there is no free will, then all actions are the end result of all the factors hosting for position. Knowing you will be fined and/or imprisoned for doing something would probably be a pretty strong factor in that equation. ---
**Author:** ![felipec](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/felipec/32/759_2.png) [@felipec](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/felipec)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:46pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/55 "2026-06-02T15:46:37Z")
> [@Michael](#): > > 1. Conscious will That’s not a physical event. That’s an **idea** you constructed in your brain. There is nothing in the physical world that maps to a notion of “conscious will”. Your consciousness exists in a realm separate from the physical realm, and whatever you call “conscious will” cannot have any effect in the physical realm. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/frank/32/216_2.png) [@Frank](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:46pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/56 "2026-06-02T15:46:41Z")
> [@Michael](#): > > I’m saying that “I have free will” means “My will is causally responsible for my actions”. The latter can obtain even if my will is causally determined by antecedent events. Sounds illogical to me. ---
**Author:** ![Michael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Michael](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Michael)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:48pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/57 "2026-06-02T15:48:12Z")
Which part? That a) “I have free will” means “My will is causally responsible for my actions” or that b) my will can be causally responsible for my actions even if my will is causally determined by antecedent events? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/frank/32/216_2.png) [@Frank](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:49pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/58 "2026-06-02T15:49:37Z")
The second part. If your will is determined, you don’t have free will. ---
**Author:** ![Michael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Michael](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/Michael)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:53pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/59 "2026-06-02T15:53:00Z")
You’re conflating. There are two separate premises: 1. “I have free will” means “My will is causally responsible for my actions” 2. My will can be causally responsible for my actions even if my will is causally determined by antecedent events Note that (2) doesn’t say anything about free will. So your objection to (2) makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![FlannelJesus](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/www.thephilosophyforum.com/flanneljesus/32/595_2.png) [@FlannelJesus](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/u/FlannelJesus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2026, 3:53pm UTC](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200/60 "2026-06-02T15:53:58Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Michael is arguing that a person is controlled by external factors Is that what Michael is saying? Are you sure those are his words? “External factors”? @Michael [Previous page](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200.md?page=2) [Next page](https://www.thephilosophyforum.com/t/free-will-does-it-exist/1200.md?page=4)