Descartes' Cogito vs. Buddha's Anatta

Scientific reductionism is grounded in mathematized abstractions. The mistake it makes is taking those abstractions as real. It is what has been called the 'surreptitious substitution’, because it substitutes abstractions for actual existence.

Anatta is not reductionist in the same sense. Scientific reductionism acts on the plane of symbolic abstraction validated against empirical observation and prediction. Buddhist praxis is dependent upon a kind of disciplined introspection and self-awareness in the context of a religious discipline.

@Wayfarer
I’m not that far along on the topic. The relationship between science and the abstract field of mathematics is non liquet. You have a thread where you bring up the unreasonable effectiveness of math in the sciences. This isn’t the whole truth though - black holes are resistant to mathematization; in QM we have Schrodinger’s cat; the soft sciences are only semi-mathematized; infinity (despite Cantor’s great leap forward) is still a mystery; there’s turbulence, an uncracked problem in physics, etc..

It seems I have to think of anatta in the framework of science and mathematics (since these 2 fields are the ones we’ve made the most gains in). Science panders to materialism and I’ve already mentioned the materialist, annihilationist philosopher Ajita Kesakambali. Buddha too affirmed anatta (no self/soul). Descartes’ project won’t fly without an I/self/soul.

If one accepts all those without asking questions on why and how they make sense, then one is committing oneself to religious attitude and faith.

If one questions on those claims in terms of the grounds, reasons and evidence, then one is looking at them from a philosophical standing.

SURREPTITIOUS SUBSTITUTION

An interesting thought - syncs with my view that mathematics doesn’t quite get us to our destination. Furthermore math hasn’t answered fundamental questions in arithmetic like what is \frac{n}{0}. Some seem enamored by the subject, but that’s not a bad thing; after all where would we be without knowing, for example, 2 + 2 = 4? The piraha tribe in South America live perfectly comfortable lives knowing to count only to 2 (1, 2, \text{ many}). Of course if you want to build a cluster of small stupas on challenging terrain, one might require some calculus.

There are people for whom (faith, religion) and (reason, philosophy) are sensible/consonant dyads. I nod to that. After all the Greek Miracle (Mythos \to Logos) is the very soul of what philosophy is.

No, not at all. Descartes was proving the “thinking thing,” not the soul, and Descartes’ dualism is very different from a Christian anthropology (where there is no separation of soul and body in the end, for all are raised in the general resurrection). Descartes was a Christian but his meditations are not specifically grounded in Christianity.

Anything’s possible (haven’t read enough Descartes myself), but the dude does come off as highly methodical and thorough. He doesn’t seem the type to have left a stone so unturned.

He eventually affirms what the Buddha negates, the self or the I.

BTW, solved the denying the antecedent problem?

In order to determine whether two people contradict each other on a given point one must set out the two things they are saying and decide if those two things contradict.

Now according to the superficial interpretations one might think, “Descartes proved the soul and Gautama denied the soul.” But if we pay careful attention we will find that neither of these two things is true. Descartes attempted to prove the res cogitans (thinking thing), and this is not the soul. Gautama’s dependent origination does not deny the soul or the self; it merely specifies the manner in which they (and all other things) exist.

But if we still think they contradict each other even after moving beyond superficial interpretations, then we would need to restate the two claims and see if the restated claims contradict.

Corvus is bound determined to commit a logical fallacy. Oh well.

The res cogitans and res extensa underpin Cartesian dualism. Descartes considered the res cogitans as the self. The Buddha was a great thinker, he was one of many wonderful res cogitanses, ergo the Buddha exists.

The Buddha doesn’t make such a distinction, except may be in a superficial way. However he does state that, sabbe dhamma anatta. If so Descartes is without a self, res cogitansly or not.

I’m not sure if this will help, but we may be too black-and-white in saying Descartes’ thought is the opposite of, say more generally, origination. We assume Descartes is trying to find justification for his existence. But just before his famous statement, he sees that it cannot be a matter of being convinced, because it could be subject to being deceived.

“…if I convinced myself of something then I certainly
existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who is deliberately and
constantly deceiving me…”

So if the foundation of the self is not determined by grounds, then how?

“let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing so
long as I think that I am something.”

Here we have to ask why does he say, “so long as”? and that my thinking is that “I am something”?

“I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is
put forward by me or conceived in my mind.”

If we accept that a “proposition” being “true” does not only have one standard (per Austin, or Wittgenstein), consider that this truth is contingent on an event in time—“whenever”; that it occurs in my proposing that “I am… [something]”! The truth of me existing is in its being “put forward by me.” This is a claim of the logical workings of it.

Yes, and “thinking” here, because temporal, is not the same as your internal dialogue. You may be parroting or simply judging; you may only exist as part of a group, as a type, a role.

If we at least provisionally grant that my being me is an event in time, not a justified state, then there might be more to consider as similar in our origination being dependent, but perhaps not interdependent (though I am not a knowledgeable Buddhist; no irony intended).

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When I am sleeping, I definitely lose my own existence. I am totally oblivious of my own existence. Why? Because I don’t think during my sleep.

Cogito Ergo Zum implies I am a thinking being. Thinking being can also make decisions. So, if I decide not to think, then do I exist or not? We can make some inference like that.

Hence we make up a MP based on the decision and inference.
If I don’t think, then I don’t exist.
I don’t think.
Therefore I don’t exist.

This was a totally a new MP with the new premise, which was based on the Cogito. It is nothing to do with denying the antecedent like some posters tried to point out.

Logically it seems valid, but not sure if it is sound.
But making up a premise which says, “If I don’t think, then I exist.” sounds totally denying the original Cogito.

Hence “If I don’t think, then I don’t exist.” sounds more inline with the Cogito spirit.

Premises can be made up whatever the claimer wants to, no matter how illogical and invalid they may sound. And if the premise in any argument is not sound or making sense, then it would be rejected by the other interlocutors anyway.

Is one’s own existence only verifiable under one’s own perception and self consciousness?

The above MP definitely has its point in being sound as well as valid, because when you are sleeping, you would be unconscious, and definitely you don’t think, which will erase your idea on your existence from your mind until you wake up from sleep.

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@AntonyNickles Your post helps in showing us Descartes’ reasoning.

I exist or I don’t exist. Tertium quid?

There’s the statement, “I exist”. Descartes affirms it and the Buddha negates it. Are you suggesting some kind of twilight zone state?

I am, therefore I think.

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Descartes’ and the Buddha’s arguments

Tx = x thinks
d = Descartes

  1. Td
  2. \exists x(Tx \wedge x = d)

or

  1. \forall x(Tx \to \exists y (y = x))
  2. Td \to \exists y (y = d)
  3. Td
  4. \exists y (y = d)


Dx = x is dependently originated

  1. \forall x(Dx \to \neg \exists y(y = x))
  2. Dd \to \neg \exists y (y = d)
  3. Dd
  4. \neg \exists y(y = d)


I’d also like some help regarding the heretical teachers Sanjaya Belathiputta, Ajita Kesakambali, Pakudah Kaccayana vis-a-vis Buddha’s anatta and Descartes’ cogito.



But the language is such that thinking is not a constant, i.e., not an every-present state (even when awake). As @Andy claims that Bhudda proposes, “the self has no inherent existence.” (And here I wonder if/how our Bhuddist dissatisfaction (dukkha) is similar to Descartes’ doubt, hiding his desire for certainty).

And we do not “decide” to think (you may still be picturing thought as our mental self-talk), but an expression is judged to be thought on our shared criteria.

Now I grant that consciousness is being awake (or aware), as opposed to sleep (or oblivious). And Descartes does point out that even if I am being deceived, I am “not nothing”, but that state does not meet his criteria (certainty, without doubt, as Rovelli starts with, by @Andy). Now I can be said to be without doubt—but not based on being convinced (persuaded)—but in having conviction (self-assurance). I am resolute, which is not to say this is a ground or justification (just bull-headedness), but it is a readiness to be intelligible for myself. So it is not proof ahead of time, but acceptance of ongoing responsibility.

Well, first, It is described as a “proposition”, which is a claim, but not a “statement” (as I would state a fact, which would be verified). It is not up for consideration; it is proposed in the sense of “put forward by me”, as one would create a law, i.e., the sense of “affirming”, as you put it, as in a declaration.

Not to side-step this, but I would suggest that simplifying to “exist or not” cuts off the possibility of learning how it works in each case and the more nuanced similarities and distinctions. I would say that imagining a third place or state is to lock ourselves into frameworks we do not then give ourselves a chance to understand, or learn from.

Back finally to the matter at hand, and without, again, any real knowledge of Buddhism, I would suggest that Descartes takes the self as something brought about in thought, or intelligibility, as an active process. Maybe the Bhudda is suggesting that the self is “formed”, as you say, passively, in acceptance, or in the “sati” moment (as @Wayfarer might expound on) of letting go of what is now called the ego (the sense of an inherent self, as @Andy puts it). Off the cuff, I would again say that Descartes origination of the self is not the ego either (our sense of an ever-present, casual, or through-line self).

But are they so disimilar? In that Descartes’ self is resolute in its acceptance of the responsibility for the intelligibility for my self, and the Bhudda in a sense could also be said to be resolute in not accepting what does not originate from me, ignoring the desires and limits given by the world.

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Buddha rejected both eternalism (Pakudah Kaccayana, Descartes-Christianity) and annihilationism (Ajita Kesakambali, Moses-Judaism). I = Soul = Ego. So when Descartes affirms his own existence, he affirms the soul/ego. When the Buddha negates his own existence, he negates the soul/ego.

Again - an overly simplistic reading. I mean, consider the fact that in Tibetan Buddhism, there is a centuries-old tradition of locating the reincarnations of eminent monks (‘rinpoches’ in the lexicon) through divination and ‘auspicious signs’. When such an infant is found, items belonging to the monk in question will be shown to them to see if they recognise them. So, how does that square with the simple statement ‘the soul does not exist’? The dogma is that there is a ‘mind-stream’ (cittasantāna) which, whilst not a fixed and static entity, does maintain continuity from one incarnation to the next. So, as I’ve tried to explain, taking ‘anatta’ (anatman) to mean ‘the self or soul does not exist’ tout courte is a mistaken interpretation. ‘Anatta’ is better translated as ‘not self’ than as ‘there is no self’.

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I don’t believe the text supports it as an argument for the self as a thing or concept, and I’ve tried to provide evidence for an alternative reading, so I guess we just leave it as a disagreement. I appreciate the opportunity to consider the juxtaposition though.

The Buddha is not around to answer our questions. By the way there’s a Jesus video game where you play as Jesus. It’s not well-done but imagine yourself playing the Buddha (I hope Buddhists won’t react violently to such a proposition), and discovering the truth, or failing, assuming alternative endings are an option. I was told that for every 1 person that makes it to Buddhahood there are 1,000,000,000,000 who don’t.

Anyway, the vast corpus of Buddhist books one has to pore over to get a grip on what the Buddha said and what peeps thought the Buddha said is not good for motivation.

It appears that one has to understand further ideas to see how it all hangs together. Unfortunately. Anatman is simply an-atman or no-soul. The soul is the self or what we commonly call I. This is what is problematic with Descartes’ cogito ergo sum. He affirms the existence of the I, aka ego, which is the soul.

@AntonyNickles you know more about Descartes than me. :smirking_face:

It was sufficient motivation for me to pursue a master’s degree in the subject.

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It’s just that if I imitate Descartes, I must say I exist, but if I listen to the Buddha, I realize I don’t.

Ajita Kesakambali denied the existence of souls (that outlive bodily death).

Pakudah Kaccayana affirmed the existence and eternity of souls.

Sanjaya Belathiputta, what would he have done?