Can “existence” be thought without relations?

Thank you for this j_j. It directly addresses a reservation I have about the philosophy of William James.

James too makes the distinction between the “I” and the “me,” with the latter being the “object in the world.” But then James insists that the “I” is a portion of what he calls “pure experience” that has a special status: it is a portion that “knows” and thereby accumulates its own history.

I find this “special status” troublesome.

The passage you supplied seems to have Sartre saying this idea of an “I” is equally misplaced, and I’m grateful for you bringing this to my attention.

The view I’m drifting towards is consistent with the Buddhist doctrine of dependent origination – in this case specifically that the knower and the known arise interdependently and exist only in relation to each other.

Is Sartre really leaning in the same direction?

I think that Sartre denies the subject, but still retains consciousness.
In my view, I think that both the subject and consciousness arise only within relations.

Hi Jin. That’s was how I was interpreting the passage provided by j_j so your comment gives me confidence.

The way I would want to proceed is to investigate Sartre’s notion of “absolute” consciousness as “a precondition and an absolute source of existence” that establishes “the relation of interdependence between me and the World.”

This doesn’t sound like the consciousness of phenomenology, which is always intentional – it sounds like something logically prior to that. More like the “pure experience” of William James’s radical empiricism except even more radical in its claim since it is also prior to the distinction between knower and known.

Maybe it’s confusing to retain the word ‘consciousness’ for this purpose, but my impression is that these thinkers were operating at the edge of language and so were in a bind as to how to convey their ideas through language.

It’s a battle trying to get behind their words to the ideas they were attempting to express, but I lean towards your view that even phenomenal consciousness arises only within the relational network.

Did you read "Does Consciosness Exist? " by chance ? That essay moved me but remained partially obscure until I studied Sartre, Mach, Heidegger, Husserl, and J. S. Mill.

Yes. As I read him, the “transcendence of the ego” is exactly that ego being one more thing, dependently arising, within the world as “global context.”

What makes the ego special and so confusing is the tangled causal relationships between what appears “for” that ego and the manifest in-the-world states of that ego’s nervous system and sense organs. IMV, Ernst Mach is a genius on this issue in the first chapter of The Analysis of Sensations. He’s easily misunderstood as a neutral monist, because his elements are “neutral.” But this neutrality is really just the flexible role they play in reasoning. The blue of the bluejay that I see can be treated “psychologically” as information about my retina rather than the bluejay. Is the “blueness” “internal” or “external” ? Mach makes this look like a pseudo-question or a question caught in an unnecessary assumption.

Let me add the name of Wolfgang Fasching to that of Sartre. As I read both of them ( with help from Heidegger’s ontological difference) consciousness is best understood not as a “primal stuff” but rather as the “presence” of whatever it present. Presence ( or being or quality) is not “what things are made of” but rather their “being there qualitatively.” So “consciousness does not exist” or “consciousness is presence of world from POV” not world itself. A subtle difference, but IMV crucial. Fasching is largely inspired by the Vedantic tradition, which presumably informed Buddhism’s dissolution of the self. Finally, a killer quote from early Wittgenstein: “experience is world as does not need the subject.”

I suggest ( YMMV) that consciousness is the bare presence of both self and world. More exactly the presence of the world-from-the-POV of the self, which includes the self. If you look up Mach’s famous self-portrait, you may agree that a picture is worth 1000 words.

Well said !

I especially like your comment about “operating at the edge of language.” I don’t like that Sartre called consciousness a “source.” This is too metaphysical. It ( barely ) reifies consciousness, forgetting the ontological difference ( at least as I like to interpret it.) Not the “source” but just the “presence” of self-entangled-in-world.

As you say, consciousness is “intentional.” But even this Husserlian notion is a little too “internalist” for me. The world appearing “for” an organism within that world is structured by “care,” so things show up as threatening or in-the-way or familiar or obscure, etc. IMV, the (shared) world “manifests” as if the “stream of experience” of an organism within that world. The only philosophical danger here is the tendency to understand experience as an internal, psychical stuff “contained” by a capacious subject. So the subject gets conflated with consciousness. Sartre is emphasizing that even my feelings, that I can try to conceal, are “in the world” and available to others, albeit available in a different way. Sartre denies any kind of absolute interiority. This seems right to me, since we are linked by language to a partial sharing in “the logic of the tribe.”

IMV, it’s because we can’t see through one another’s eyes ( for example) that an “interior” is invented. But we can alternatively understand objects as syntheses of aspects that get “mislabeled” as “internal perceptions.”

Just my POV, but I find, in the long run, the radical empiricism of James to be compatible with Heidegger’s “Dasein is monad,” Mach’s empiriocriticism, and Mill’s “phenomenalism.”

You provided me with a lot of stuff to work through, and I thank you for that, but I just wanted to make a quick reply about the above remark.

I can’t find the quote in my copy of the TLP (Tr. Pears & McGuinness) but I can find a couple of passages that seem to do the same job: 5.632 “The subject does not belong to the world: rather it is a limit of the world” and in 5.64 he writes “the world is my world.”

If your quote is your own interpreation of these sections then it is enormously helpful.

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I’m very glad if I have been helpful in any way. You can find the quote in the Notebooks, at page 89e. The pdf is here : https://ia601307.us.archive.org/20/items/notebooks191419100witt/notebooks191419100witt.pdf

The exact quote is :

All experience is world and does not need the subject.

Both passages from the TLP you quote are relevant. “The world is my world” expresses the “from-a-point-of-view-ness” that can’t be scrubbed off of the world.

The claim “the subject does not belong to the world” says to me that the-subject-as-consciousness is not an object in the world. Phenomenal consciousness is ( only ) the “presence” or “being” or “quality” of a world that is the conscious person’s world or world-for-that-“conscious”-person. Of course we are all discussing the same one world that shows itself differently to each of us, which is a larger version of a book club where each member discusses how a particular book manifested itself to them.

Hello Jin. This is a very profound and structural question to explore.

When trying to conceptualize “existence” independently of “relations,” it can be quite helpful to look at how formal mathematics has attempted to approach this exact same landscape.

In Category Theory, there is a fundamental result known as the Yoneda Lemma . What this lemma essentially models is that any given mathematical object is completely and uniquely defined by the sum of its relationships (morphisms) with all other objects within its category. In this specific framework, the object itself and the totality of its relations are fundamentally the exact same thing. The object is its relations.

If we apply this conceptual model to your question, it suggests that defining a “thing” without its relations leaves us with an empty structure.

I am curious: when you consider an existence completely stripped of all its relations, what kind of existence remains in your specific philosophical view? How would you define its boundaries?

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I might be wrong, but it feels to me that the question itself starts to collapse — and in that sense, existence can’t really be grasped as something fixed.

The Yoneda Lemma is really interesting. I’ve actually been trying to learn more about it as well.

Nicely put. Do you think there is a connection here with Fazang’s analogy of the Net of Indra – a network of jewels in which every jewel reflects all other jewels, so any particular jewel is a perspective on the entire net?

And thanks for the link to Wittgenstein’s notes. I’ve wondered for a long time what W meant by his use of the word “microcosm” in TLP 5.63. Now it becomes clear.

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Thanks !

So Schroedinger’s My View of The World is also basically “ontological perspectivism,” and he refers to the Net of Indra. There’s also this from Leibniz.

  1. And as the same town, looked at from various sides, appears quite different and becomes as it were numerous in aspects [perspectivement]; even so, as a result of the infinite number of simple substances, it is as if there were so many different universes, which, nevertheless are nothing but aspects [perspectives] of a single universe, according to the special point of view of each Monad.

Glad you liked the Wittgenstein link !

My understanding is that Leibniz was aware of Chinese philosophy because of his contacts with Jesuit priests there, and it’s not unlikely that Huayan Buddhism was the inspiration for his Monadology.

But the Monadology took this atheistic Chinese variant of Madhyamaka Buddhism, with its emphasis on emptiness (absence of substances), and forced it into the mold of a theistic substance-based metaphysics.

Then Whitehead came along and re-engineered the Monadology out of that mold and into a process-based mold, reverting back to something closer to the Buddhist perspective (albeit with a theistic twist).

It seems to me that Carlo Rovelli’s Relational Quantum Mechanics updates this perspective for the quantum age, which was in its infancy at the time of Whitehead.

What led me into this study was the way that developments in quantum mechanics over recent decades seem to alleviate much of the enigma of quantum mechanics by abandoning substance-based metaphysics.

This is a fascinating convergence of diverse perspectives spanning millennia. The more I look into it, the more it seems like some kind of “open secret.” Thank you for providing me with more pointers to look into.

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When you see or perceive an object, you are interacting with the real world. By means of perception a human being can interact with the world.

So, if someone sees an apple and they’re used to a place where apples are common and are a common theme among peoples, they will identify the apple accordingly.

This means that if a person that isn’t used to the environment finds an apple, it won’t be clear to them that what is presented is an apple.

That’s where I find that the creation of relationship between objects and perception is useful in identifying an apple.

For example, a probing scientist or someone who reads their work will know that the apple is made of certain substances, which are not clear by means of pure vision without relation. Still, the substances inside the apples are real. So are the relationships that cause the apple to share these substances with all or the greater part of one another.

And these kind of relations can only be built by means of language or complex relationships between causation and effect in apples.

For a human to interact in this form, the perception by means of any sense also seems necessary.

Hi @MCogito. You have prompted me to look into the Yoneda Lemma too. It looks like a a mathematical framework that is consistent with Ontic Structural Realism (OSR) and that might provide a mathematical grounding for it.

It occurred to me that this perspective might reconcile two seemingly irreconcilable metaphysical approaches.

In Fazang’s Net of Indra, each jewel reflects all other jewels, and so relations are entirely internal.

In Leibniz’s Monadology, each monad is its own substance, and so relations are entirely external.

In OSR, this internal/external distinction seems to collapse, rendering internal and external relations different ways of viewing the same setup.

I’m wondering if I’ve overlooked something that might undermine this picture.

The Yoneda Lemma seems to say that an object is completely characterized by the totality of its relations with other objects. (This is still my interpretation while studying it.)

In other words, the object itself and the totality of its relations are treated as essentially the same thing.

I find this view of “object = relations” very interesting.

Haven’t got to Rovelli yet, but I did recently put some time into Whitehead.

Have you looked into QBism yet ? Chris Fuchs is a strong philosopher, with deep roots in the crew that ran with William James. ( If you happen to bump into Menand’s The Metaphysical Club: A Story of Ideas in America, you’d probably like it, given our mutual interests. )

Overcoming substance looks like the issue to me at this point. Lately I read Heidegger’s ontological difference into the issue of consciousness. And the result sounds like nonsense, I imagine, until that difference is grasped conceptually. “Consciousness” is “being” is not some kind of stuff or clay or general category. So it’s the quality or presence of world-from-POV, which ties into Leibniz’s ontological perspectivism. I think that you already get what I’m trying to say here, but I thought I’d expand yet again on something that seems so philosophically central.

I completely agree with you. Once a particular writer “opens the door,” you find yourself able to understood other writers using different jargons for the same “formal indication.”

It looks like the perfect mathematical platform for OSR, but moreover, Radical OSR (“there are no things”) and not Moderate OSR (“you can’t have relations without relata”).

I would place James in the category of MOSR given his deep dive into “things and their relations,” but I can’t help feeling that he was clinging to a last vestige of substance metaphysics.

Fuchs was a student of Wheeler, and Wheeler completely fascinates me, but I have reservations about placing emphasis on the agent.

My provisional view is that Wheeler’s “it-from-bit” scenario can be interpreted in a way that dissolves the agent into the universe (along the lines of Heinz-Dieter Zeh’s “decoherence”) in such a way that it is smeared out over Wheeler’s “self-excited circuit.” This gives an ontology.

Fuchs, however, takes the agent as central in his recruitment of Bayesian probability theory. I can’t see how this isn’t a step backwards.

I know Fuchs is a James scholar, but I have a similar problem with James, so it might follow on from that. James seemed to get to the threshold of the Madhyamaka view but then refused to cross that threshold in his insistence on retaining the idea of libertarian free will.

Your book recommendation is winging its way to me as we speak. Thanks.

Ah, OK. What makes sense to me is the agent as normative-linguistic-empirical subject in the “forum.” This empirical subject is “transcendent” with respect to the “consciousness” associated with that agent in the sense of being one more thing in the world, albeit in a special functional relationship with other things. Avenarius, Mach’s distant theoretical brother, is likewise great on this. Here’s a gem of a forgotten paper:

The “consciousness” “of” this agent is “nothing” ---- or rather the “being” or just the “bare presence” of world-from-the-POV-of-that-entangled-agent. For me, anyway, the “consciousness (non-)subject” must be distinguished from the agent who is “tracked in the regime of scorekeeping” and who doesn’t want to be the boy who cried wolf. Brandom’s work strongly influenced me. To be rational is to aim at a kind of performance on the social stage, AKA “the space of reasons.” Because this forum is fundamental, even ontology’s necessary-because-enabling entity, there is no “reducing” the forum into something “dead and static.” Normativity is basic. Of course I am not arguing for a particular authority. I’m just pointing out that presenting a “rational” theory presupposes all that rationality presupposes. For context, I’d say that the “lifeworld” is “most real” or “least neglect-able” for anyone trying to foreground or explicate this forum.

As I see it, getting a conceptual grip on consciousness is part of this. We intend the qualitative object. If I say “the coffee here is great,” then I am talking about the coffee that is “there” for my nose and tongue. But also, because I am talking to you, potentially to your nose and tongue. I can’t taste the coffee for you nor you for me. Likewise a scientific experiment involves mundane-qualitative physical objects and not “things in themselves” from “no POV.” The “scientific image” is “responsible” to perceptions that are “owned” in the sense of “mine” or “yours” or “his.” Yet language links dis-owned perceptions to our own sense of the world, so that I can update my belief by my experience of a verbal presentation of yours.

Probabilistic models, which you mention, can be understood in terms of situated expectation. I believe that event A is twice as likely as event B, and that either A or B will occur. I defend/justify my belief in terms of a histogram, etc. “I don’t see any other pattern except A happens twice as often as B in this context.”

Of course some people project “wave functions” as “truly real” “metaphysically-physical” entities “behind the scenes.” But to me this gets things backwards. Any predictive model is responsible to (qualitative, situated) experience, or one is doing “numerology” rather than (empirical) science, to put it a little crudely. I have to appropriate the science of my day personally. Because belief is “situated” or “owned” ( just like the perception of “mundanely” or “genuinely” physical objects ), the agent makes sense to me, as a loosely sketched “frame” of the physical theory. Especially if you view the model as a “tool” for guiding decisions. Whose decision ?

I know I’m dripping with references, but I can tell you are deep into the philosophy-science intersection. Did you ever check out operationalism ?

Especially important for Bridgman’s thinking was Albert Einstein’s special theory of relativity. Bridgman credited an unexpected teaching assignment in 1914 for his first real encounter with special relativity, which gave him considerable distress as he tried to clarify the confusing conceptual situation surrounding the theory (Bridgman in Frank 1956, 76). At the heart of special relativity was Einstein’s recognition that judging the simultaneity of two events separated in space required a different operation from that required for judging the simultaneity of two events happening at the same place. Fixing the latter operation was not sufficient to fix the former, so a further convention was necessary, which Einstein supplied in the form of his operation of sending light beams from each of the events in question to the midpoint between their locations, to see if they arrive there at the same time. How superior this way of thinking was, compared to Isaac Newton’s declaration that he would “not define Time, Space, Place or Motion, as being well known to all” (quoted in Bridgman 1927, 4)! Bridgman felt that all physicists, including himself, had been guilty of unthinking uses of concepts, especially on the theoretical side of physics.

Bridgman’s sentiment arising out of these reflections, however, was not the familiar one of happy celebration of Einstein’s genius. He rather regretted the sorry state of physics which had necessitated Einstein’s revolution. Einstein showed what dangerous traps we could fall into by stepping into new domains with old concepts in an unreflective way. Anyone thinking in operational terms would have recognized from the start that the meaning of “distant simultaneity” was not fixed unless an operation for judging it was specified (Bridgman 1927, 10–16). In Bridgman’s view, Einstein’s revolution would never have been necessary, if classical physicists had paid operational attention to what they were doing.

His most famous work is a free pdf, if you are curious. I found it gripping right away.

Very cool. I’m very glad to be talking with someone who’s into this stuff.